/ News & Press / Video / Fuel Switching Can Save Water - Freshwater Use for Coal Vs. Natural Gas Extraction, Power Generation
Fuel Switching Can Save Water - Freshwater Use for Coal Vs. Natural Gas Extraction, Power Generation
WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en
00:00:07.790 emily is coming here 00:00:11.38000:00:11.390 wrong 00:00:13.07000:00:13.080 and she's going to to talk about some of 00:00:17.75000:00:17.760 her research she gave up university of 00:00:19.76000:00:19.770 texas at austin her research focuses on 00:00:23.72000:00:23.730 sort of the nexus between energy and 00:00:26.45000:00:26.460 water away missions in extractive 00:00:29.17900:00:29.189 industries from working a number of 00:00:31.60900:00:31.619 areas including July and she was kind 00:00:35.75000:00:35.760 enough to travel several thousand miles 00:00:37.90000:00:37.910 talk to us today about water use 00:00:42.89000:00:42.900 associated with coal mine and natural 00:00:45.68000:00:45.690 gas production is a very interesting 00:00:47.39000:00:47.400 pair of study down into Texas so Emily 00:00:52.64000:00:52.650 thank you so in part because I think 00:00:57.17000:00:57.180 that there are a number of different 00:00:58.96900:00:58.979 pieces of this work that I'd like to 00:01:00.74000:01:00.750 talk about a little bit today if there's 00:01:02.18000:01:02.190 any point at which you have questions or 00:01:03.64900:01:03.659 just want to stop and call out something 00:01:05.24000:01:05.250 please do i hope this can be a little 00:01:06.80000:01:06.810 bit conversational and if there are 00:01:09.08000:01:09.090 places where people want to focus more 00:01:10.49000:01:10.500 than others stop me we can spend some 00:01:12.14000:01:12.150 more time there but as Jim said I I did 00:01:14.75000:01:14.760 a lot of work over the last few years on 00:01:16.73000:01:16.740 electricity fuel cycles and how they 00:01:18.59000:01:18.600 affect water consumption in particular I 00:01:20.63000:01:20.640 think in part because in a lot of cases 00:01:23.09000:01:23.100 the extraction site hasn't been studied 00:01:24.80000:01:24.810 as much what we really tried to focus on 00:01:27.29000:01:27.300 in this work was extraction in addition 00:01:30.83000:01:30.840 to some of the power plant Stefan's I'll 00:01:32.33000:01:32.340 explain that a little bit more in a 00:01:33.68000:01:33.690 minute but yeah basically just going to 00:01:35.42000:01:35.430 be comparing the natural gas and the 00:01:37.37000:01:37.380 coal-fired electricity fuel cycles in 00:01:39.98000:01:39.990 Texas I'll get to why Texas in a little 00:01:42.83000:01:42.840 minute not just because I'm from UT so 00:01:46.31000:01:46.320 what I'm going to talk about today in 00:01:48.02000:01:48.030 part why water consumption in the fossil 00:01:50.33000:01:50.340 fuel industry is actually interesting 00:01:51.95000:01:51.960 and I think that this gets overlooked 00:01:54.23000:01:54.240 probably less here because the Marcellus 00:01:56.39000:01:56.400 is so close by and so I think probably 00:01:58.55000:01:58.560 there's more talk about it here then 00:02:00.17000:02:00.180 there might be somewhere else and so I'm 00:02:02.63000:02:02.640 going to start there then talk about how 00:02:03.98000:02:03.990 we define the boundaries for this life 00:02:05.36000:02:05.370 cycle analysis because as anyone who's 00:02:07.73000:02:07.740 ever tried a life cycle analysis before 00:02:09.38000:02:09.390 probably knows very very deeply it's 00:02:13.16000:02:13.170 hard to define where you're going to 00:02:14.27000:02:14.280 stop in this case we got kind of lucky 00:02:15.97900:02:15.989 and just defined our boundaries pretty 00:02:17.50900:02:17.519 much at the state line which was helpful 00:02:19.28000:02:19.290 but I'll get into that a little bit more 00:02:21.08000:02:21.090 later then I'll go into a bit about what 00:02:22.97000:02:22.980 we actually found from extraction power 00:02:25.97000:02:25.980 plant cooling 00:02:26.84000:02:26.850 controls etc down in Texas and explain 00:02:29.12000:02:29.130 why I think this is interesting and what 00:02:30.89000:02:30.900 it might mean outside of Texas so first 00:02:34.64000:02:34.650 of all just this is a way that I think 00:02:36.44000:02:36.450 about this a little bit just in terms of 00:02:38.75000:02:38.760 how the energy industry uses water so 00:02:40.52000:02:40.530 there's quantity issues and quality 00:02:41.78000:02:41.790 issues just in terms of what you're 00:02:43.04000:02:43.050 using you are taking some amount of 00:02:44.99000:02:45.000 water and consuming it you are taking 00:02:46.73000:02:46.740 some amount of water and changing its 00:02:48.14000:02:48.150 quality perhaps and then there's also 00:02:49.52000:02:49.530 this element of adequacy that affects 00:02:51.05000:02:51.060 both of those so do you have adequate 00:02:52.76000:02:52.770 quantity to do what you want to do and 00:02:54.35000:02:54.360 not have a major impact do you have 00:02:55.67000:02:55.680 adequate quality that kind of thing so 00:02:57.89000:02:57.900 what I'm focusing on today is quantity 00:02:59.96000:02:59.970 but i just wanted to start off 00:03:01.19000:03:01.200 mentioning that that's not the only 00:03:02.99000:03:03.000 issue here and just to point out that 00:03:05.57000:03:05.580 the study does not address things like 00:03:07.49000:03:07.500 quality issues inadequacy issues all 00:03:09.56000:03:09.570 that directly so why i think this is 00:03:14.00000:03:14.010 interesting the water and energy 00:03:15.29000:03:15.300 relationship that we see in the united 00:03:17.27000:03:17.280 states and really all over the world is 00:03:18.86000:03:18.870 changing fairly rapidly for a number of 00:03:20.75000:03:20.760 big reasons some of the macro trends we 00:03:22.85000:03:22.860 see of course our climate change big 00:03:24.68000:03:24.690 widespread droughts and that's something 00:03:26.45000:03:26.460 that we felt very very deeply in Texas 00:03:28.58000:03:28.590 over the last few years actually while I 00:03:30.59000:03:30.600 was writing this paper I had put a 00:03:32.63000:03:32.640 placeholder for the amount of Texas that 00:03:34.70000:03:34.710 had experienced severe drought in 2010 00:03:37.60000:03:37.610 expecting the answer to be somewhere 00:03:39.44000:03:39.450 around ninety percent the real answer 00:03:41.96000:03:41.970 was a hundred percent so drought is a 00:03:43.85000:03:43.860 big issue down there and increasingly 00:03:45.41000:03:45.420 across the rest of the world um and then 00:03:48.32000:03:48.330 also just the trend in the u.s. 00:03:50.63000:03:50.640 particularly that is a long-term trend 00:03:53.27000:03:53.280 really of natural gas and coal being 00:03:54.65000:03:54.660 very dominant fuels in the electricity 00:03:56.06000:03:56.070 production sector some of the more 00:03:58.46000:03:58.470 recent changes and some of the things 00:04:00.11000:04:00.120 that are a little bit more localized are 00:04:01.91000:04:01.920 things like the rise of hydraulic 00:04:03.53000:04:03.540 fracturing so the impact of energy use 00:04:06.50000:04:06.510 on water has changed a lot since we 00:04:08.09000:04:08.100 started fracking wells something else 00:04:10.37000:04:10.380 being aging power plant infrastructure 00:04:12.35000:04:12.360 so older plants tend to be less 00:04:14.60000:04:14.610 efficient and also get less efficient as 00:04:16.55000:04:16.560 they age so that can have big impacts on 00:04:19.72900:04:19.739 cooling and stuff like that and also 00:04:21.77000:04:21.780 changing power market structures so in 00:04:23.72000:04:23.730 Texas in particular what we have is 00:04:25.49000:04:25.500 competitive markets which means a lot of 00:04:27.32000:04:27.330 the time you can't rely on just saying 00:04:28.97000:04:28.980 statewide these plants are your base 00:04:30.47000:04:30.480 load plants that are going to run all 00:04:31.76000:04:31.770 the time and be efficient all the time 00:04:33.26000:04:33.270 and these plants are your peakers and we 00:04:34.73000:04:34.740 know that we design them to be that way 00:04:36.80000:04:36.810 what you see increasingly is that plants 00:04:38.87000:04:38.880 are called to operate in ways that they 00:04:40.21900:04:40.229 might not 00:04:40.77000:04:40.780 designed to do and so that can affect 00:04:42.48000:04:42.490 the way that they use water both on the 00:04:44.70000:04:44.710 emissions control side and on the 00:04:45.78000:04:45.790 cooling site actually than the data why 00:04:49.37900:04:49.389 this is interesting to study i think is 00:04:51.03000:04:51.040 because the water and energy 00:04:52.11000:04:52.120 relationship is really pretty under 00:04:53.76000:04:53.770 characterised that's changed a bit but 00:04:56.04000:04:56.050 really when you look at a lot of the 00:04:57.42000:04:57.430 recent work even that has been published 00:04:59.15900:04:59.169 over the last few years you keep coming 00:05:01.05000:05:01.060 back to this one citation from 1994 and 00:05:03.45000:05:03.460 that's really what we know about water 00:05:05.97000:05:05.980 and extraction in particular some of the 00:05:08.15900:05:08.169 data on power plant water use and stuff 00:05:09.93000:05:09.940 is a bit newer but really there's not a 00:05:11.85000:05:11.860 lot of work done in water there's great 00:05:13.40900:05:13.419 work done in air emissions there's great 00:05:14.94000:05:14.950 work done in waste stuff like that 00:05:16.71000:05:16.720 although that's developing as well but 00:05:18.51000:05:18.520 water I think tends to be particularly 00:05:19.92000:05:19.930 under characterized part of the reason 00:05:21.96000:05:21.970 we didn't look at quality in this paper 00:05:23.34000:05:23.350 is because that is so under call under 00:05:25.56000:05:25.570 characterize that we couldn't really 00:05:26.70000:05:26.710 even get it good data that we felt 00:05:28.20000:05:28.210 comfortable using in a publication so to 00:05:33.65900:05:33.669 kind of explain what I'm going to be 00:05:36.00000:05:36.010 talking about when I say fuel cycle what 00:05:38.87900:05:38.889 we really looked at from the electricity 00:05:40.50000:05:40.510 perspective is three major stages during 00:05:42.36000:05:42.370 the life of a kilowatt hour so there's 00:05:45.42000:05:45.430 the extraction stage where you get your 00:05:46.92000:05:46.930 in this case your choler natural gas you 00:05:49.71000:05:49.720 move on to power generation where your 00:05:51.21000:05:51.220 big impact on water tends to be cooling 00:05:52.95000:05:52.960 and then on the back end you tend to 00:05:54.36000:05:54.370 have emissions controls that's less 00:05:55.86000:05:55.870 common in the natural gas fuel cycle but 00:05:57.63000:05:57.640 for for completeness it could start to 00:06:01.17000:06:01.180 be more prevalent there especially as we 00:06:02.70000:06:02.710 get into carbon capture we go into that 00:06:04.17000:06:04.180 a little bit more later but I think some 00:06:05.90900:06:05.919 of the interesting things to note here 00:06:07.68000:06:07.690 are that on the extraction side what you 00:06:10.38000:06:10.390 really have is a bifurcation between 00:06:12.75000:06:12.760 natural gas and coal in that with 00:06:14.31000:06:14.320 natural gas when you use water you put 00:06:16.17000:06:16.180 it down whole you keep it down there use 00:06:18.21000:06:18.220 it as drilling mud you drill you use it 00:06:20.04000:06:20.050 as frack fluid stuff like that you 00:06:22.44000:06:22.450 produce some of it but ultimately you 00:06:24.18000:06:24.190 are putting water into the system to get 00:06:25.77000:06:25.780 gas out on the coal side and realizing 00:06:28.80000:06:28.810 that this is a Texas context so I'm 00:06:30.24000:06:30.250 talking about surface mining and surface 00:06:32.07000:06:32.080 mining particularly in aquifers really 00:06:34.95000:06:34.960 what you have to do is take water out of 00:06:36.15000:06:36.160 the system so in an ideal world you'd be 00:06:38.43000:06:38.440 using pretty much no water at all but 00:06:40.11000:06:40.120 because you need to keep your coal face 00:06:41.40000:06:41.410 dry you have to pump a lot of water out 00:06:44.01000:06:44.020 of these systems before you can get at 00:06:45.48000:06:45.490 your coal and that has some impacts on 00:06:47.10000:06:47.110 how you use water outside of that I'm 00:06:49.05000:06:49.060 and also on the cold side although this 00:06:51.45000:06:51.460 is something that is a little bit less 00:06:52.98000:06:52.990 important right 00:06:54.23900:06:54.249 now in a lot of areas where mining is 00:06:55.88900:06:55.899 ongoing revegetation so putting the 00:06:58.79900:06:58.809 trees in the fields and whatever it was 00:07:00.35900:07:00.369 that was on top of the coal mine before 00:07:01.55900:07:01.569 you started mining back on there can 00:07:03.17900:07:03.189 take a lot of water because 00:07:04.25900:07:04.269 reestablishing plants and stuff like 00:07:05.78900:07:05.799 that I'm sure you both had gardens where 00:07:09.38900:07:09.399 you stopped watering your point for a 00:07:10.58900:07:10.599 little while and it died same thing 00:07:11.93900:07:11.949 happens on top of coal mines and that 00:07:13.31900:07:13.329 turns out to be a huge water usage 00:07:14.78900:07:14.799 actually didn't go into that here 00:07:16.34900:07:16.359 because most of the Texas mines haven't 00:07:17.87900:07:17.889 been shut down yet but just to note that 00:07:20.18900:07:20.199 that's an issue in both cases for power 00:07:22.91900:07:22.929 generation we're really talking about 00:07:24.26900:07:24.279 cooling in terms of water use on the 00:07:26.90900:07:26.919 extraction on the emissions side rather 00:07:28.61900:07:28.629 for coal what I'm going to talk about 00:07:30.80900:07:30.819 today is the sulphur controls so flue 00:07:33.26900:07:33.279 gas scrubbers and things like that some 00:07:35.21900:07:35.229 of the other controls that you might see 00:07:36.62900:07:36.639 for particulates or NOx and things like 00:07:38.48900:07:38.499 that don't really use water so they're 00:07:39.95900:07:39.969 excluded here just to give you a sense 00:07:41.48900:07:41.499 of what we're talking about so on the 00:07:46.01900:07:46.029 defining the boundaries point a couple 00:07:48.29900:07:48.309 issues to talk about here when we were 00:07:49.97900:07:49.989 trying to figure out how to do this life 00:07:51.20900:07:51.219 cycle analysis looking at Texas in 00:07:53.66900:07:53.679 particular because that's where we had 00:07:55.10900:07:55.119 good data we decided that we wanted to 00:07:58.58900:07:58.599 look basically at the water consumption 00:08:00.62900:08:00.639 that was occurring within the state so 00:08:02.21900:08:02.229 from a geographic perspective defining 00:08:05.24900:08:05.259 that state boundary was an easy step 00:08:08.54900:08:08.559 defining what exactly felt into that 00:08:10.46900:08:10.479 state boundary was a little harder so 00:08:12.77900:08:12.789 this graph kind of shows a little bit of 00:08:16.43900:08:16.449 what I'm talking about in that we 00:08:18.83900:08:18.849 decided to include all gas and coal that 00:08:20.99900:08:21.009 was extracted within the state that was 00:08:22.88900:08:22.899 used within the state for power 00:08:23.99900:08:24.009 generation so this excludes some of the 00:08:26.12900:08:26.139 gas that gets exported for example and 00:08:27.95900:08:27.969 it also excludes a lot of the coal that 00:08:29.54900:08:29.559 gets imported Texas imports about 00:08:31.76900:08:31.779 two-thirds of its cold turns out that 00:08:33.20900:08:33.219 that coal which is coming from Wyoming 00:08:34.88900:08:34.899 doesn't use a lot of water so it's not a 00:08:36.36000:08:36.370 huge analytical detail to omit it that 00:08:39.02900:08:39.039 said it's still something that we did 00:08:40.67900:08:40.689 emit then looking a little bit more 00:08:42.95900:08:42.969 closely at some of these boxes on the 00:08:44.85000:08:44.860 extraction side we included dewatering 00:08:47.00900:08:47.019 in other mine uses like that for the 00:08:49.13900:08:49.149 coal on the gas side we look not only at 00:08:52.35000:08:52.360 drilling mud and frack fluid but also at 00:08:54.74900:08:54.759 the embedded water in province and 00:08:56.16000:08:56.170 chemicals we had to make a few 00:08:57.50900:08:57.519 assumptions on that side and we can talk 00:08:59.10000:08:59.110 more about that offline or during this 00:09:00.60000:09:00.610 whatever people have appetite for but 00:09:02.75900:09:02.769 that was probably one of the more 00:09:03.92900:09:03.939 interesting things we did because we had 00:09:05.42900:09:05.439 to go off of economic models 00:09:07.53000:09:07.540 is obviously if you don't really know 00:09:09.50900:09:09.519 what those chemicals are if you don't 00:09:11.31000:09:11.320 know whether you're using manufactured 00:09:12.84000:09:12.850 proppant or sand it's hard to tell what 00:09:15.68900:09:15.699 kind of water is actually embedded into 00:09:17.10000:09:17.110 those systems but we made an attempt we 00:09:19.43900:09:19.449 excluded transportation so train 00:09:22.01900:09:22.029 transportation pipeline transportation 00:09:23.24900:09:23.259 because it's really not a big water use 00:09:25.19900:09:25.209 and the at this high level it didn't 00:09:29.85000:09:29.860 make a big difference we did a little 00:09:31.07900:09:31.089 bit of sensitivity and ultimately 00:09:32.49000:09:32.500 decided to exclude it and then 00:09:34.71000:09:34.720 downstream we included cooling and on 00:09:37.19900:09:37.209 the emissions control side both the 00:09:38.61000:09:38.620 direct water use for flue gas scrubbing 00:09:40.23000:09:40.240 and the water that's embedded in 00:09:41.46000:09:41.470 limestone and stuff like that that 00:09:42.54000:09:42.550 you're actually using in the scrubber so 00:09:43.98000:09:43.990 when you mind limestone to then put into 00:09:45.80900:09:45.819 your scrubber you use some water much 00:09:47.67000:09:47.680 the same way you use it Nicole mine 00:09:48.90000:09:48.910 actually it's largely dewatering and 00:09:50.37000:09:50.380 storm water removal so basically 00:09:53.37000:09:53.380 included extraction cooling water and 00:09:56.00900:09:56.019 emissions controls with a couple of 00:09:57.62900:09:57.639 indirect effects of chemicals and 00:09:59.24900:09:59.259 province and sulphur scrubbing materials 00:10:04.16000:10:04.170 so just to give a quick overview again 00:10:08.48000:10:08.490 what we looked at on the extraction side 00:10:11.40000:10:11.410 was 11 specific unconventional gas 00:10:13.71000:10:13.720 basins and then conventional gas we 00:10:15.84000:10:15.850 didn't look at offshore but we look 00:10:17.81900:10:17.829 basically at what you might use for a 00:10:20.30900:10:20.319 conventional well that is not fracked 00:10:21.60000:10:21.610 and then what you went used for an 00:10:23.04000:10:23.050 unconventional well that is fracked in 00:10:24.66000:10:24.670 11 separate situations on the cool side 00:10:28.87900:10:28.889 what we looked at was the dewatering and 00:10:31.76900:10:31.779 then also the other mine uses so to kind 00:10:33.48000:10:33.490 of give you a sense of what the 00:10:34.62000:10:34.630 dewatering use is if you've got this 00:10:37.53000:10:37.540 coal mine this kind of trapezoidal shape 00:10:40.35000:10:40.360 in order to keep it dry wherever you're 00:10:42.68900:10:42.699 mining you need to pump a lot of water 00:10:44.16000:10:44.170 out that tends to form what's called a 00:10:45.54000:10:45.550 cone of depression so you take out a lot 00:10:47.18900:10:47.199 more water than just the volume of the 00:10:48.68900:10:48.699 mine that varies by geology etc and in 00:10:52.01900:10:52.029 Texas this is a somewhat controversial 00:10:55.28000:10:55.290 definition perhaps but the Texas Water 00:10:57.54000:10:57.550 Development Board defines all of that 00:10:59.00900:10:59.019 water as consumptive this is 00:11:01.31900:11:01.329 controversial because when you think 00:11:03.36000:11:03.370 about coal it's a lot like a Brita Brita 00:11:05.69900:11:05.709 filter for water so a lot of the time 00:11:07.49900:11:07.509 the water that you're actually pumping 00:11:08.55000:11:08.560 out of these mines is quite clean unlike 00:11:10.49900:11:10.509 the water that you might put down a gas 00:11:11.81900:11:11.829 well or something like that so although 00:11:13.19900:11:13.209 you are taking it out of the mind and 00:11:15.21000:11:15.220 then discharging it somewhere and though 00:11:17.97000:11:17.980 that is considered consumption it's a 00:11:19.55900:11:19.569 very different type of consumption than 00:11:21.33000:11:21.340 you might see on the gas side so even 00:11:23.85000:11:23.860 though this is counted as consumed it's 00:11:25.41000:11:25.420 still contributing to stream water flow 00:11:27.57000:11:27.580 that kind of thing so just to call that 00:11:29.61000:11:29.620 out a little bit it's pretty clean water 00:11:31.02000:11:31.030 that's coming out of these minds but 00:11:33.24000:11:33.250 that said it does draw down aquifers and 00:11:35.28000:11:35.290 that can be a big deal in this state 00:11:36.81000:11:36.820 like Texas where drought is so 00:11:37.95000:11:37.960 significant that if you are ultimately 00:11:40.35000:11:40.360 discharging that water into the Gulf 00:11:41.85000:11:41.860 you're not going to get it back and that 00:11:43.92000:11:43.930 can be a pretty big problem for you yeah 00:11:47.72000:11:47.730 I'm sure we'll get to this waiting yeah 00:11:50.67000:11:50.680 you just don't reject coal so you would 00:11:53.46000:11:53.470 cold water that you extracted no it 00:11:54.96000:11:54.970 doesn't make all that much sense just 00:11:56.28000:11:56.290 because the mines are small enough in a 00:11:59.22000:11:59.230 small enough user that it's not a huge 00:12:01.32000:12:01.330 deal and so since they've been there for 00:12:02.88000:12:02.890 quite a while they've kind of gotten 00:12:04.29000:12:04.300 used to discharging and it does 00:12:05.61000:12:05.620 contribute to stream flow there probably 00:12:07.05000:12:07.060 is some downstream use but where that's 00:12:08.67000:12:08.680 not specifically called out it's 00:12:10.65000:12:10.660 considered consumption so yeah the 00:12:13.35000:12:13.360 rejection poses a bit of a problem 00:12:15.30000:12:15.310 because you'd be flooding your mind 00:12:16.38000:12:16.390 again because they're shallow and every 00:12:17.70000:12:17.710 day yeah Texas is pretty flat though but 00:12:22.23000:12:22.240 yeah yeah I think this is this is again 00:12:25.56000:12:25.570 why I keep mentioning Texas Texas Texas 00:12:27.66000:12:27.670 because in a lot of the coal mines on 00:12:28.95000:12:28.960 this side of the on the side of the 00:12:30.39000:12:30.400 world like in the Appalachian you would 00:12:32.04000:12:32.050 not have these same problems so the 00:12:34.59000:12:34.600 Texas mines in particular are unusual in 00:12:37.29000:12:37.300 their shallowness their lignite mines 00:12:39.03000:12:39.040 and so they're basically still very 00:12:41.49000:12:41.500 close to the time at which they were 00:12:42.66000:12:42.670 swamps so there's a lot of water in 00:12:45.45000:12:45.460 there you get the same thing up in North 00:12:46.89000:12:46.900 Dakota less so in other basins on the 00:12:50.31000:12:50.320 cooling side what's kind of interesting 00:12:51.66000:12:51.670 is that we were comparing natural gas 00:12:53.34000:12:53.350 combined cycle plants with pulverized 00:12:54.57000:12:54.580 coal plants just because that's kind of 00:12:56.16000:12:56.170 what you see on base Linda baseload 00:12:59.40000:12:59.410 comparisons down in Texas and I think 00:13:00.99000:13:01.000 that's fairly true in most of the United 00:13:02.67000:13:02.680 States at least what we ended up seeing 00:13:05.43000:13:05.440 was that you get a huge advantage on 00:13:07.05000:13:07.060 cooling water needs in NGC sees vs. 00:13:09.36000:13:09.370 pulverized coal plants not just because 00:13:10.92000:13:10.930 they're a lot more efficient typically 00:13:12.42000:13:12.430 but because they're partially air-cooled 00:13:13.74000:13:13.750 so the combined cycle bit you've got a 00:13:16.08000:13:16.090 gas turbine and then a steam turbine the 00:13:18.09000:13:18.100 gas turbine parts air-cooled so you're 00:13:19.62000:13:19.630 not using any water and then the steam 00:13:21.51000:13:21.520 turbine part is cooled with water much 00:13:23.40000:13:23.410 like a coal plant the entire coal plant 00:13:25.62000:13:25.630 is being cooled with water to bring this 00:13:29.10000:13:29.110 a little bit farther is kind of a side 00:13:30.57000:13:30.580 note typically you see natural gas-fired 00:13:32.64000:13:32.650 power plants combined cycles use the 00:13:34.50000:13:34.510 least amount of water 00:13:35.33000:13:35.340 of the water cold ones then coal plants 00:13:38.33000:13:38.340 because they use some water to cool and 00:13:39.98000:13:39.990 emit some of their heat to the 00:13:41.27000:13:41.280 atmosphere and then nuclear plants use 00:13:43.04000:13:43.050 the most because none of that heat is 00:13:44.24000:13:44.250 going to atmosphere for obvious reasons 00:13:46.61000:13:46.620 so you need a lot more water to cool 00:13:47.93000:13:47.940 them so interesting side note at least 00:13:50.51000:13:50.520 to me but we do see that effect pretty 00:13:53.09000:13:53.100 strongly and so if we were comparing for 00:13:54.86000:13:54.870 example I GCC's so integrated 00:13:56.93000:13:56.940 gasification combined cycle coal plants 00:13:58.64000:13:58.650 with ng CCS we probably would have seen 00:14:00.65000:14:00.660 less disparity between the cooling uses 00:14:02.42000:14:02.430 I'll get that to it get to that in a 00:14:04.01000:14:04.020 minute but because those aren't actually 00:14:05.89000:14:05.900 really used we decided to go off of 00:14:09.05000:14:09.060 existing existing types of power plants 00:14:11.00000:14:11.010 and then on the scrubber side I alluded 00:14:14.12000:14:14.130 to this a little bit earlier but basic 00:14:15.68000:14:15.690 oh this is an animation cool it wasn't 00:14:18.44000:14:18.450 on my computer exciting but basically 00:14:21.02000:14:21.030 you've got water that you're blowing 00:14:22.79000:14:22.800 into this scrubber then you're also 00:14:24.32000:14:24.330 injecting basically limestone powder and 00:14:27.04000:14:27.050 pulling out the sulfur by having it 00:14:29.12000:14:29.130 absorb on to the limestone so you end up 00:14:31.70000:14:31.710 using water both to extract that 00:14:33.17000:14:33.180 limestone and to directly cool the wet 00:14:35.63000:14:35.640 scrubber it is true that there are 00:14:38.33000:14:38.340 certain plants in Texas that use dry 00:14:40.04000:14:40.050 scrubbers we took that into account but 00:14:41.72000:14:41.730 by and large where you're seeing water 00:14:42.86000:14:42.870 uses for these so in Texas what we found 00:14:50.42000:14:50.430 was that the natural gas combined cycle 00:14:52.64000:14:52.650 plants over their fuel cycle in these 00:14:55.04000:14:55.050 steps that I described and including the 00:14:56.69000:14:56.700 second-order effects of provence 00:14:57.92000:14:57.930 chemicals limestone all of that used 00:15:00.05000:15:00.060 about forty percent as much water per 00:15:01.79000:15:01.800 kilowatt hour as the pulverized coal 00:15:03.50000:15:03.510 plants that are currently operating um 00:15:05.23000:15:05.240 this is based on plant level data we 00:15:07.61000:15:07.620 actually did have data for each 00:15:09.23000:15:09.240 pulverized coal plants operating in 00:15:10.97000:15:10.980 Texas and the average for all the ng CCS 00:15:14.23000:15:14.240 but just to call this that walk through 00:15:17.45000:15:17.460 this waterfall a little bit this big 00:15:20.15000:15:20.160 dark blue color is cooling water so what 00:15:22.61000:15:22.620 you see here in both fuel cycles 00:15:24.44000:15:24.450 actually is the cooling water accounts 00:15:25.94000:15:25.950 for about eighty percent of the water 00:15:27.20000:15:27.210 that you're consuming ultimately the 00:15:30.26000:15:30.270 fuel bit which is the next darker bar in 00:15:34.01000:15:34.020 both cases it counts for between ten and 00:15:37.13000:15:37.140 twenty percent of the fuel cycle water 00:15:39.44000:15:39.450 use water consumption and then on the 00:15:42.59000:15:42.600 coals that you've got a little bit of a 00:15:43.67000:15:43.680 mission so walking through this starting 00:15:45.98000:15:45.990 with the PC the pulverized coal plant 00:15:47.81000:15:47.820 water consumption it's about point 00:15:49.10000:15:49.110 61 gallons per kilowatt-hour in Texas is 00:15:52.37000:15:52.380 what we calculated we then calculated 00:15:55.40000:15:55.410 what that water consumption would be if 00:15:57.44000:15:57.450 the pulverized coal plant we're running 00:15:58.75900:15:58.769 at the same heat right as a natural gas 00:16:00.44000:16:00.450 combined cycle so just to kind of get 00:16:02.54000:16:02.550 that effect out of the way um and what 00:16:05.54000:16:05.550 you see is really the efficiency change 00:16:07.16000:16:07.170 is huge just the fact that natural gas 00:16:08.78000:16:08.790 plants tend to be more efficient not 00:16:10.31000:16:10.320 only because they're newer but because 00:16:11.72000:16:11.730 they're using the fuel twice combined 00:16:13.55000:16:13.560 cycle thing you get a huge benefit from 00:16:16.78000:16:16.790 actually all areas just by being a lot 00:16:19.10000:16:19.110 more efficient you're using less fuel 00:16:20.24000:16:20.250 you are using more of your heat to turn 00:16:22.55000:16:22.560 into electricity so you're not having to 00:16:24.01900:16:24.029 cool it as much all that kind of thing 00:16:25.40000:16:25.410 so the efficiency boost is huge then 00:16:28.22000:16:28.230 even on an efficiency parity point 00:16:30.73000:16:30.740 natural gas combined cycle is use a bit 00:16:32.78000:16:32.790 less water that's kind of the air 00:16:34.04000:16:34.050 cooling point that I made earlier the 00:16:36.65000:16:36.660 really interesting thing to us was that 00:16:38.75000:16:38.760 on the fuel extraction side natural gas 00:16:41.24000:16:41.250 plants on an efficiency parity basis use 00:16:43.79000:16:43.800 a little bit more water for fuel 00:16:45.38000:16:45.390 extraction than coal plants but not much 00:16:48.37000:16:48.380 even when you account for the fact that 00:16:50.56900:16:50.579 there's all this imported coal that 00:16:52.19000:16:52.200 actually isn't using any water in Texas 00:16:54.31900:16:54.329 so the the takeaway there is that 00:16:57.50000:16:57.510 because of the way that lignite minds 00:16:59.15000:16:59.160 work in Texas and if you assume that 00:17:00.62000:17:00.630 dewatering is consumption even with the 00:17:03.94900:17:03.959 impact of hydraulic fracturing and even 00:17:06.28900:17:06.299 assuming that you get all of your 00:17:07.78900:17:07.799 two-thirds of your imported coal for 00:17:09.67900:17:09.689 free for water the gas is not using that 00:17:12.19900:17:12.209 much more water per unit of energy that 00:17:14.48000:17:14.490 turns into electricity and then the coal 00:17:16.97000:17:16.980 and that was a surprise because I think 00:17:19.03900:17:19.049 we were expecting to see that natural 00:17:21.04900:17:21.059 gas combined cycle plants we're using a 00:17:22.52000:17:22.530 lot less water on the cooling side and 00:17:23.87000:17:23.880 obviously on the emissions side because 00:17:25.22000:17:25.230 they don't have emissions controls 00:17:26.29900:17:26.309 typically but to see that even with 00:17:29.00000:17:29.010 fracking the water consumption for fuel 00:17:31.15900:17:31.169 is fairly similar was a pretty big 00:17:32.99000:17:33.000 surprise go into more detail on that in 00:17:34.70000:17:34.710 a minute then just to finish it up the 00:17:37.28000:17:37.290 emissions controls you get a boost on 00:17:39.04900:17:39.059 the gas side because you don't have them 00:17:40.70000:17:40.710 and then ultimately we get about a 00:17:42.79900:17:42.809 quarter of a gallon per kilowatt hour 00:17:44.36000:17:44.370 for a natural gas combined cycle plan 00:17:46.22000:17:46.230 yeah yeah I know the quality is not was 00:17:48.86000:17:48.870 not part of the study but yeah for the 00:17:50.69000:17:50.700 cooling do they do require what are the 00:17:52.61000:17:52.620 same temperature for both of these 00:17:53.98000:17:53.990 roughly that's what's saying so Texas 00:17:56.18000:17:56.190 plants and this is kind of interesting 00:17:57.23000:17:57.240 because most coastal states and Texas is 00:17:59.54000:17:59.550 a coastal state and from California and 00:18:01.10000:18:01.110 had trouble accepting that for a little 00:18:02.57000:18:02.580 but it is coastal a lot of coastal 00:18:05.14900:18:05.159 states you see water for power plant 00:18:06.59000:18:06.600 cooling it's not really true in Texas 00:18:08.38900:18:08.399 because what you see is that refineries 00:18:10.25000:18:10.260 take up a lot of the industrial space on 00:18:12.01900:18:12.029 the coast and so your power plants are 00:18:13.61000:18:13.620 further inland using strings so yes they 00:18:15.88900:18:15.899 take about the same temperature put out 00:18:17.36000:18:17.370 the same temperature they're both using 00:18:18.47000:18:18.480 river water typically they're a couple 00:18:20.53900:18:20.549 ground water cool plants but not many 00:18:23.64900:18:23.659 yeah the confusion so why are you so do 00:18:32.81000:18:32.820 you do a sensitivity analysis of the of 00:18:34.97000:18:34.980 the 00:18:37.33000:18:37.340 yeah a little bit this one we kind of 00:18:42.10000:18:42.110 took our best guess estimate but so on 00:18:44.26000:18:44.270 that what we found was that in both 00:18:45.94000:18:45.950 cases for province and for chemicals it 00:18:48.73000:18:48.740 was actually surprisingly close for each 00:18:50.32000:18:50.330 but using some of our economic inputs 00:18:53.56000:18:53.570 things like that did a lot of digging 00:18:55.45000:18:55.460 through 10 k's of profit companies um 00:18:57.99000:18:58.000 you get kind of the amount of water that 00:19:01.57000:19:01.580 you're using on site for a drill 00:19:02.98000:19:02.990 drilling situation plus between about 00:19:05.65000:19:05.660 eight and thirty percent each for the 00:19:07.45000:19:07.460 chemicals in the province that you're 00:19:08.62000:19:08.630 using that's the higher level is 00:19:11.23000:19:11.240 assuming and again because our boundary 00:19:13.12000:19:13.130 was Texas the higher boundaries assuming 00:19:15.52000:19:15.530 that everything is manufactured not mind 00:19:17.41000:19:17.420 because you can mind some province and 00:19:19.09000:19:19.100 that it's all mind and manufactured in 00:19:21.07000:19:21.080 Texas so all in I think probably overall 00:19:25.72000:19:25.730 the province and the chemicals together 00:19:27.25000:19:27.260 at about sixty percent to the on-site 00:19:28.99000:19:29.000 water use as the high end about twenty 00:19:31.30000:19:31.310 percent on the low end so because the 00:19:33.91000:19:33.920 extraction piece is small enough you 00:19:35.95000:19:35.960 don't see a huge difference in the 00:19:37.21000:19:37.220 assumptions that you make at this level 00:19:38.68000:19:38.690 but when you start going into really 00:19:40.39000:19:40.400 water used per million btu or something 00:19:43.93000:19:43.940 like that there's a bit of a change 00:19:45.34000:19:45.350 there the bigger effect actually is 00:19:47.38000:19:47.390 which basin you're looking at so I'll 00:19:49.33000:19:49.340 flip to that slide in just a minute but 00:19:51.15000:19:51.160 what we found was that between 00:19:53.37000:19:53.380 unconventional guests across the eleven 00:19:55.72000:19:55.730 basins that we looked at there was a 00:19:56.89000:19:56.900 spread of like two or three X depending 00:19:58.66000:19:58.670 on which base and it was so there's also 00:20:00.85000:20:00.860 that going on a little bit maybe I will 00:20:04.69000:20:04.700 actually just start there because they 00:20:06.46000:20:06.470 think that this might be more 00:20:07.27000:20:07.280 interesting to talk about given that 00:20:08.56000:20:08.570 were a little short on time um yeah I 00:20:14.16000:20:14.170 want lots of questions though and if 00:20:16.24000:20:16.250 people have to leave I'd love to get to 00:20:17.77000:20:17.780 those so this is this is actually more 00:20:20.11000:20:20.120 interesting than the other stuff anyway 00:20:21.52000:20:21.530 let's just go here um basically this is 00:20:24.73000:20:24.740 a chart across the 11 unconventional 00:20:26.98000:20:26.990 basins we looked at conventional gas and 00:20:28.69000:20:28.700 Texas lignite of how much water per I 00:20:32.14000:20:32.150 think my unit is gallons per million 00:20:33.73000:20:33.740 BTUs for each of these energy sources so 00:20:37.15000:20:37.160 to walk through this little bit this red 00:20:38.92000:20:38.930 bar is conventional natural gas so 00:20:41.29000:20:41.300 that's just drilling fluid there's no 00:20:42.88000:20:42.890 frack fluid associated with that this is 00:20:44.41000:20:44.420 just the mud that you keep the bit cool 00:20:46.03000:20:46.040 with that kind of thing um as you step 00:20:50.14000:20:50.150 through the 00:20:50.71000:20:50.720 the other basins and I'll point out a 00:20:52.33000:20:52.340 couple things here in a minute you see 00:20:54.19000:20:54.200 that on the high end which we determine 00:20:57.39900:20:57.409 kind of the Barnett in the Haynesville 00:20:58.77900:20:58.789 we're at the high end of water 00:20:59.79900:20:59.809 consumption they're using kind of six 00:21:03.07000:21:03.080 gallons per million btu where's things 00:21:04.99000:21:05.000 like the anadarko basin in the Eagle 00:21:06.70000:21:06.710 furder using more like two one of the 00:21:09.49000:21:09.500 really interesting reasons for that 00:21:11.02000:21:11.030 besides geologic setting so like the 00:21:13.81000:21:13.820 Haynesville in particular is in a swampy 00:21:15.31000:21:15.320 area so you might expect that the the 00:21:18.39900:21:18.409 rock is actually absorbing a little bit 00:21:19.84000:21:19.850 more of the water you're probably 00:21:20.71000:21:20.720 getting a little bit less benefit out of 00:21:24.03900:21:24.049 the unit of water you put down to 00:21:26.04900:21:26.059 actually frack stuff like that down on 00:21:28.89900:21:28.909 this side you tend to see more of the 00:21:31.06000:21:31.070 basins that have a lot of oil so not 00:21:34.02900:21:34.039 quite sure how to tease that one out and 00:21:35.77000:21:35.780 actually here we assume that all the 00:21:37.69000:21:37.700 water was being attributed to natural 00:21:39.49000:21:39.500 gas or oil on a BTU basis so there is an 00:21:44.14000:21:44.150 argument to be made that actually 00:21:45.61000:21:45.620 extracting oil takes a lot more water 00:21:47.20000:21:47.210 than taking natural gas out just because 00:21:49.24000:21:49.250 of the different viscosities and because 00:21:51.01000:21:51.020 of things like water flooding those 00:21:52.36000:21:52.370 types of practices so that number might 00:21:54.37000:21:54.380 actually even be smaller for the actual 00:21:56.86000:21:56.870 unit of associated gas you get in these 00:21:58.65900:21:58.669 very oily basins but the the key 00:22:01.93000:22:01.940 takeaway on that I guess is just there's 00:22:03.82000:22:03.830 a pretty big spread across all of these 00:22:05.95000:22:05.960 different basins I'd love to get my 00:22:07.75000:22:07.760 hands on some good data for some of the 00:22:09.64000:22:09.650 other basins the Marcellus in particular 00:22:11.40900:22:11.419 springs to mind there are a couple of 00:22:12.85000:22:12.860 other very very water intensive ones 00:22:14.77000:22:14.780 that we know are more water intensive 00:22:16.45000:22:16.460 than the more common basins but it's not 00:22:19.24000:22:19.250 totally clear how this is dallen per 00:22:26.74000:22:26.750 million btu yeah yeah 00:22:36.62000:22:36.630 yes that is the EU are weighted average 00:22:39.66000:22:39.670 so the expected ultimate recovery 00:22:41.28000:22:41.290 weighted average for all of the natural 00:22:42.78000:22:42.790 gas produced in Texas onshore so none of 00:22:45.09000:22:45.100 the big ultra deep wells offshored that 00:22:47.07000:22:47.080 are kind of interesting to look at but 00:22:49.19000:22:49.200 also a little harder to get data for but 00:22:52.44000:22:52.450 that's the onshore average for the 2010 00:22:55.41000:22:55.420 to 2060 period projected it includes 00:22:57.99000:22:58.000 some recycling the numbers are from 2010 00:23:00.21000:23:00.220 so there's an argument to be made that 00:23:02.58000:23:02.590 recycling will get a little bit better 00:23:04.23000:23:04.240 but based on current technology current 00:23:06.51000:23:06.520 recycling status that kind of thing as 00:23:08.43000:23:08.440 of 2010 this is the expected ultimate 00:23:10.86000:23:10.870 recovery weighted average for natural 00:23:12.60000:23:12.610 gas in Texas about three gallons per 00:23:14.58000:23:14.590 million btu what that immediately shows 00:23:16.80000:23:16.810 you is that the state is waiting much 00:23:18.78000:23:18.790 more toward these than the conventional 00:23:20.49000:23:20.500 gas at lease on shore which is 00:23:22.59000:23:22.600 interesting in itself and confirmed by 00:23:25.23000:23:25.240 projections so it was good that it 00:23:27.06000:23:27.070 worked out that way but um the the point 00:23:33.87000:23:33.880 that I'd like to make about the coal 00:23:35.10000:23:35.110 this bar is gallons per million btu of 00:23:38.94000:23:38.950 coal produced in Texas out of those 00:23:40.71000:23:40.720 lignite basins the dark brown is the non 00:23:42.96000:23:42.970 dewatering consumption so that's the 00:23:44.55000:23:44.560 stuff you're using to keep dust down um 00:23:47.01000:23:47.020 for hotelling purposes like toilets and 00:23:50.73000:23:50.740 stuff like that which does count up some 00:23:52.20000:23:52.210 wine consumption a lot of the time 00:23:53.22000:23:53.230 because they use their own produced 00:23:54.15000:23:54.160 water for it equipment cooling that kind 00:23:56.67000:23:56.680 of thing the other ninety percent of it 00:23:58.86000:23:58.870 is dewatering water that is not assigned 00:24:01.41000:24:01.420 to a downstream user in few cases the 00:24:03.63000:24:03.640 mines actually discharged with the 00:24:05.28000:24:05.290 intent of having somebody use that water 00:24:06.81000:24:06.820 further downstream we took that water 00:24:08.28000:24:08.290 out so this is stuff that is basically 00:24:10.35000:24:10.360 earmarked to go out to the Gulf from the 00:24:12.63000:24:12.640 aquifer and again it was very surprising 00:24:17.88000:24:17.890 to us how big that number was also again 00:24:21.12000:24:21.130 I feel like I need to reiterate the 00:24:24.45000:24:24.460 caveat that that water's a lot cleaner 00:24:26.10000:24:26.110 than some of the water that you might be 00:24:28.25000:24:28.260 experiencing in other parts of the field 00:24:30.18000:24:30.190 chain that said it is still water that 00:24:32.94000:24:32.950 you're removing from its setting and 00:24:34.41000:24:34.420 making less usable in the future and so 00:24:37.05000:24:37.060 based on state state definitions it is 00:24:40.98000:24:40.990 considered consumptive use and so that 00:24:43.86000:24:43.870 that large number on the coal I think 00:24:46.56000:24:46.570 was 00:24:47.61000:24:47.620 not expected by pretty much anyone what 00:24:50.15000:24:50.160 we did a little bit of back of the 00:24:52.26000:24:52.270 envelope analysis to see what you might 00:24:53.91000:24:53.920 experience some of the sub bituminous 00:24:55.68000:24:55.690 basins so the Wyoming coal just because 00:24:58.11000:24:58.120 that's the other cold that Texas uses 00:25:01.34000:25:01.350 evidence and again this is not based on 00:25:03.54000:25:03.550 great data is that it's kind of five to 00:25:05.52000:25:05.530 twenty percent as high as this so much 00:25:07.79900:25:07.809 much smaller that's in part because 00:25:11.64000:25:11.650 those those mines are both bigger and 00:25:14.49000:25:14.500 deeper and also because they're not as 00:25:16.98000:25:16.990 much deeply in an aquifers the lignite 00:25:19.02000:25:19.030 mines are so in a couple of cases in 00:25:21.12000:25:21.130 Wyoming you actually don't need to do 00:25:22.53000:25:22.540 water the mine at all just get lucky 00:25:24.18000:25:24.190 with these sometimes hundred foot thick 00:25:26.31000:25:26.320 seams of coal that you don't need to do 00:25:28.32000:25:28.330 water which is convenient for the 00:25:30.39000:25:30.400 operators but what it does mean is that 00:25:32.88000:25:32.890 the Texas League night is particularly 00:25:34.65000:25:34.660 water intensive yeah 00:25:51.09000:25:51.100 so yes and no one of the things about 00:25:54.07000:25:54.080 lignite and you see this in North Dakota 00:25:56.20000:25:56.210 and you see it in Texas is that most of 00:25:57.97000:25:57.980 the lignite mines are my mouth my mouth 00:26:00.85000:26:00.860 mines my mouth plants rather because of 00:26:03.91000:26:03.920 exactly that problem because it's lower 00:26:05.77000:26:05.780 energy density it has a tendency to 00:26:07.51000:26:07.520 spontaneously combust when you transport 00:26:09.31000:26:09.320 it and when the dust starts getting 00:26:10.60000:26:10.610 aerosolized and so what you do is take 00:26:12.22000:26:12.230 it directly from the mine into the power 00:26:13.63000:26:13.640 plant to avoid those problems so you 00:26:15.64000:26:15.650 don't want to keep it wet that's going 00:26:17.17000:26:17.180 to make it hard to burn but you also 00:26:18.37000:26:18.380 don't want to transport it because it 00:26:20.04900:26:20.059 would catch on fire um the other point 00:26:24.01000:26:24.020 in both of these cases actually which is 00:26:25.60000:26:25.610 quite different from some of the 00:26:26.65000:26:26.660 interior coals down in Illinois and some 00:26:28.66000:26:28.670 of the Appalachian calls that are 00:26:29.71000:26:29.720 through the the East Coast is that these 00:26:32.95000:26:32.960 coals both the lignite and the sub 00:26:34.72000:26:34.730 bituminous coal from Wyoming or fairly 00:26:36.28000:26:36.290 low energy density which means that 00:26:39.63000:26:39.640 processing them in any significant way 00:26:42.16000:26:42.170 is usually not worth it they're big 00:26:43.66000:26:43.670 surface mines you scoop up the coal it's 00:26:45.34000:26:45.350 basically generally thick seams and you 00:26:47.79900:26:47.809 don't have a lot of rock intermingled 00:26:49.24000:26:49.250 with it if you did you wouldn't be 00:26:50.62000:26:50.630 mining it because it wouldn't be worth 00:26:51.64000:26:51.650 it so you're not using water for like 00:26:53.23000:26:53.240 flotation separation the way that you 00:26:54.70000:26:54.710 might out here so that that consumptive 00:26:57.58000:26:57.590 use that's not the watering is almost 00:26:58.96000:26:58.970 exclusively dust control so that's kind 00:27:07.00000:27:07.010 of the fun extraction stuff um and then 00:27:12.34000:27:12.350 just just to come back to this point a 00:27:13.90000:27:13.910 little bit because the is dewatering 00:27:16.06000:27:16.070 actually consumption question is a valid 00:27:18.85000:27:18.860 one this graph is the same version as 00:27:21.16000:27:21.170 the other one but assuming that 00:27:22.39000:27:22.400 dewatering is not actually consumption 00:27:24.91000:27:24.920 so what you see is that the increased 00:27:27.73000:27:27.740 water use for gas versus coal is quite a 00:27:29.95000:27:29.960 bit higher and again this is assuming 00:27:31.87000:27:31.880 that a lot of your call has no water 00:27:33.54900:27:33.559 footprint at all and assuming the eor 00:27:35.38000:27:35.390 rated weighted average for guess so it's 00:27:39.43000:27:39.440 still not a huge effect but it is quite 00:27:41.11000:27:41.120 a bit bigger if you assume that the 00:27:42.54900:27:42.55900:27:43.84000:27:43.850 but just to give that picture efficiency 00:27:45.64000:27:45.650 is still the huge driver here 00:27:49.91000:27:49.920 yeah this one right this is million btu 00:28:15.20000:28:15.210 of gas only so we did cut out the oil 00:28:17.09000:28:17.100 versus gas production I think to clarify 00:28:19.37000:28:19.380 the point 0 is making it's just that you 00:28:21.05000:28:21.060 might actually be using more water than 00:28:22.79000:28:22.800 you would if it were only guess to get 00:28:25.01000:28:25.020 some of that oil out but we looked at 00:28:26.90000:28:26.910 only the ultimate recovery for gas in 00:28:29.39000:28:29.400 calculating this part so yeah there 00:28:31.91000:28:31.920 shouldn't be any oil numbers 00:28:33.35000:28:33.360 intermingled in here we tried to check 00:28:36.11000:28:36.120 for that but Barnett I think it's about 00:28:46.55000:28:46.560 the same there's no water flooding as 00:28:47.90000:28:47.910 such that's done it's just straight 00:28:49.19000:28:49.200 hydraulic fracturing pretty much the 00:28:51.20000:28:51.210 same as you would do in the Marcellus or 00:28:52.64000:28:52.650 Barnett yeah so you're something's 00:28:54.26000:28:54.270 either are quite good yeah but it was an 00:28:58.88000:28:58.890 interesting output um I don't know that 00:29:01.52000:29:01.530 I expected that much spread across the 00:29:03.41000:29:03.420 different unconventional basins actually 00:29:04.85000:29:04.860 and again I would love to see some 00:29:05.99000:29:06.000 outside of Texas that were analyzed in 00:29:08.66000:29:08.670 the same way because this is basically 00:29:10.10000:29:10.110 based on an extensive survey of 00:29:12.62000:29:12.630 producers over I think about 10 years 00:29:15.44000:29:15.450 and then projected out to 2060 so hard 00:29:18.68000:29:18.690 to get compared to a true of all of 00:29:20.33000:29:20.340 those basins compared for example to the 00:29:22.10000:29:22.110 Marcellus is that in all those bases 00:29:24.77000:29:24.780 you're getting back a lot more water 00:29:26.39000:29:26.400 when you frack and then you get the flow 00:29:27.86000:29:27.870 back you're getting up to at least 50 00:29:30.53000:29:30.540 sometimes eighty percent in those basins 00:29:32.81000:29:32.820 right in Marcel's it's the opposite 00:29:34.40000:29:34.410 you're getting twenty percent back and 00:29:36.44000:29:36.450 more cells you're leaving a lot more 00:29:38.06000:29:38.070 water down so it would be interesting to 00:29:40.55000:29:40.560 to look at the different numbers it's 00:29:42.41000:29:42.420 it's also i think really interesting to 00:29:44.69000:29:44.700 me in that sense because you are getting 00:29:46.25000:29:46.260 a lot more of this water back but 00:29:47.45000:29:47.460 there's a bit less pressure to recycle 00:29:49.10000:29:49.110 it that's not universally true and 00:29:51.32000:29:51.330 especially in some areas like the 00:29:52.61000:29:52.620 barnett where you literally are fracking 00:29:55.01000:29:55.020 at dallas/fort Worth Airport everyone 00:29:56.96000:29:56.970 can see it often you're using drinking 00:29:58.25000:29:58.260 water to do it although I think they 00:29:59.60000:29:59.610 made that illegal a couple years ago um 00:30:01.27000:30:01.280 it's very visible and it's 00:30:03.68000:30:03.690 like I said Texas has been in the in the 00:30:06.37900:30:06.389 throes of essentially the new drought of 00:30:08.14900:30:08.159 record for the last few years and so 00:30:09.91900:30:09.929 when people are being told you can't 00:30:11.26900:30:11.279 water your lawn you can't do your 00:30:13.19000:30:13.200 laundry you can't whatever even though 00:30:15.61900:30:15.629 there's I think typically culturally a 00:30:18.32000:30:18.330 little bit more of a pro energy 00:30:20.36000:30:20.370 extraction stance down there than there 00:30:21.88900:30:21.899 might be out here seeing this very 00:30:24.88900:30:24.899 conspicuous use of water in places where 00:30:26.99000:30:27.000 you might not have had that use before I 00:30:29.02900:30:29.039 think has been pretty unsettling for 00:30:31.39900:30:31.409 people and so hearing the attitudes 00:30:33.40900:30:33.419 about what's going on that's kind of 00:30:34.94000:30:34.950 well you know we want the gas and we 00:30:36.56000:30:36.570 want to be producing it here and we want 00:30:38.65900:30:38.669 to make sure that we keep this industry 00:30:40.07000:30:40.080 alive but at the same time like my trees 00:30:42.37900:30:42.389 all died why can you do this and I can't 00:30:45.20000:30:45.210 and prove to me that this is actually 00:30:46.43000:30:46.440 important given that prices are low all 00:30:48.44000:30:48.450 that sort of stuff it's it's a very 00:30:50.33000:30:50.340 different conversation than you get out 00:30:51.88900:30:51.899 here from what I can tell but it's still 00:30:53.84000:30:53.850 a very active line the pumped water from 00:30:58.36900:30:58.379 the coal and using it for those purposes 00:31:00.08000:31:00.090 I assume it's good they're in pretty 00:31:02.06000:31:02.070 different places okay so unfortunately 00:31:04.27900:31:04.289 it's kind of that nice swath that used 00:31:07.03900:31:07.049 to be the ocean coming in from the side 00:31:12.43000:31:12.440 so I think before opening it up entirely 00:31:15.25900:31:15.269 to questions just the one other point I 00:31:17.02900:31:17.039 want to make quickly with a less pretty 00:31:19.10000:31:19.110 chart is the carbon capture and storage 00:31:21.13900:31:21.149 point so if you did start to put carbon 00:31:23.53900:31:23.549 capture systems onto the back end of 00:31:25.24900:31:25.259 existing natural gas combined cycle 00:31:27.04900:31:27.059 plants or pulverized coal plants with 00:31:30.04900:31:30.059 existing technologies and I recognize 00:31:31.73000:31:31.740 that there are a lot of things that are 00:31:32.96000:31:32.970 being done that are sort of pre 00:31:34.58000:31:34.590 combustion technologies or better immune 00:31:36.25900:31:36.269 systems but I mean scrubbers sticking 00:31:38.81000:31:38.820 them on the back of plants that exists 00:31:40.54900:31:40.559 already the amount of water that you 00:31:43.15900:31:43.169 start using per kilowatt hour drums 00:31:44.74900:31:44.759 really really dramatically for a couple 00:31:47.41900:31:47.429 of reasons so one being there's a huge 00:31:51.74000:31:51.750 parasitic load associated with carbon 00:31:54.20000:31:54.210 capture and storage so because you're 00:31:55.49000:31:55.500 using steam to capture your carbon for 00:31:58.36900:31:58.379 like cleaning out your immune system and 00:32:00.28900:32:00.299 stuff like that you're taking a wasting 00:32:02.11900:32:02.129 that would otherwise be diverted through 00:32:03.32000:32:03.330 a generator and producing power so you 00:32:04.87900:32:04.889 have a direct electric parasitic load on 00:32:07.46000:32:07.470 that side that means you're using a lot 00:32:08.72000:32:08.730 more fuel your cooling more per per 00:32:12.25900:32:12.269 kilowatt hour that you're putting out 00:32:13.34000:32:13.350 stuff like that and then there's also 00:32:15.01900:32:15.029 just the direct water use of those 00:32:16.60900:32:16.619 carbon cap 00:32:17.24000:32:17.250 your systems so in the cold case what 00:32:20.54000:32:20.550 you see is that you can almost double 00:32:22.64000:32:22.650 the amount of water that you're using 00:32:24.14000:32:24.150 per kilowatt-hour when you start talking 00:32:26.36000:32:26.370 about putting an ambien system onto the 00:32:28.04000:32:28.050 back the natural gas combined cycle case 00:32:30.08000:32:30.090 is a little bit better again because 00:32:31.58000:32:31.590 they tend to start out more efficient 00:32:33.08000:32:33.090 they've got this air-cooled component 00:32:34.52000:32:34.530 that kind of thing but still you're 00:32:35.96000:32:35.970 you're increasing your water consumption 00:32:37.73000:32:37.740 by over half again and so just kind of 00:32:40.82000:32:40.830 an interesting point as we talk about 00:32:42.26000:32:42.270 trying to control carbon at the same 00:32:43.79000:32:43.800 time as we're trying to handle our water 00:32:45.11000:32:45.120 problems at the same time as we're 00:32:46.31000:32:46.320 trying to handle economic issues with 00:32:47.72000:32:47.730 electricity there are a lot of competing 00:32:50.51000:32:50.520 things that we're trying to balance here 00:32:52.25000:32:52.260 that actually don't all go together so 00:32:54.73000:32:54.740 just throwing that out there is kind of 00:32:57.62000:32:57.630 an interesting looming point if we ever 00:32:59.57000:32:59.580 do good on that path yeah in these 00:33:05.54000:33:05.550 plants and what happens when you have a 00:33:08.02000:33:08.030 cashiers depends who you talk to um a 00:33:13.48000:33:13.490 few years ago the rule of thumb was kind 00:33:16.67000:33:16.680 of thirty percent electrical parasitic 00:33:18.32000:33:18.330 load it's more recent tests and after 00:33:21.02000:33:21.030 they put that system in it Mountaineer 00:33:22.61000:33:22.620 and it suggests more like fifteen 00:33:24.77000:33:24.780 percent but still electrical parasitic 00:33:27.14000:33:27.150 load it's pretty big and there's not a 00:33:29.06000:33:29.070 whole lot of actual operational data so 00:33:30.86000:33:30.870 once you start throwing in things like 00:33:32.30000:33:32.310 load following and stuff like that it's 00:33:34.91000:33:34.920 somewhere between probably ten and 00:33:37.28000:33:37.290 thirty percent similar argument at least 00:33:44.63000:33:44.640 on the extraction site actually applies 00:33:45.92000:33:45.930 to dry cooling as well because you've 00:33:47.33000:33:47.340 got this parasitic load so you're using 00:33:48.80000:33:48.810 more fuel per unit of electricity that 00:33:52.40000:33:52.410 you're putting out you're ultimately 00:33:53.60000:33:53.610 using less overall water because you're 00:33:55.10000:33:55.110 using less cooling water but you're 00:33:56.66000:33:56.670 using more water to extract and that 00:33:58.70000:33:58.710 water is coming from different places 00:33:59.81000:33:59.820 that might be less able to do it or more 00:34:01.82000:34:01.830 able to do it hard to say but making 00:34:05.15000:34:05.160 certain water choices can throw 00:34:06.92000:34:06.930 different water consequences up and down 00:34:09.13900:34:09.149 the fuel chain either side so it's kind 00:34:11.21000:34:11.220 of an interesting thing to think about 00:34:12.26000:34:12.270 particularly as we start having more 00:34:15.19000:34:15.200 basin transfer of energy so again in 00:34:18.47000:34:18.480 Texas most of the most of the gas that 00:34:20.51000:34:20.520 is used down there is produced within 00:34:22.15900:34:22.169 the state that's not really true in the 00:34:23.57000:34:23.580 rest of the US so trading off a water 00:34:26.71000:34:26.720 impact in Iowa for one in Pennsylvania 00:34:29.75000:34:29.760 or something like that is 00:34:30.98000:34:30.990 a pretty real thing so I think with that 00:34:36.43000:34:36.440 yeah what just kind of the conclusions 00:34:39.29000:34:39.300 more efficient plants use less water so 00:34:41.16900:34:41.179 efficiency is really really helpful in 00:34:43.82000:34:43.830 this kind of situation cooling is the 00:34:46.73000:34:46.740 main driver of water consumption that 00:34:48.40900:34:48.419 was a fairly known fact previously 00:34:50.75000:34:50.760 people have been saying that extraction 00:34:51.98000:34:51.990 was a pretty much negligible use I think 00:34:54.13900:34:54.149 it's more like ten percent some people 00:34:56.14900:34:56.159 would still call that negligible but 00:34:57.41000:34:57.420 cooling is the big driver of water use 00:34:59.15000:34:59.160 for the electricity fuel cycle and on 00:35:02.66000:35:02.670 the extraction site again I think that 00:35:04.16000:35:04.170 it's probably not fair to say that it's 00:35:06.23000:35:06.240 a negligible amount of water that's 00:35:07.49000:35:07.500 going into our our fuel extraction 00:35:09.62000:35:09.630 particularly when you start thinking 00:35:11.09000:35:11.100 about quality impacts and adequacy 00:35:12.80000:35:12.810 impacts and the geology that you're 00:35:14.96000:35:14.970 working in matters quite a lot so 00:35:17.08000:35:17.090 especially since they're not here I'm 00:35:19.76000:35:19.770 just wanted to acknowledge my co-authors 00:35:20.84000:35:20.850 and funding and open it up for questions 00:35:25.33000:35:25.340 thank you guys yeah i actually did throw 00:35:43.37000:35:43.380 this into last minute so we use this 00:35:45.53000:35:45.540 kind of cool tool that you may or may 00:35:47.63000:35:47.640 not have seen it came out of Carnegie 00:35:49.84900:35:49.859 Mellon the economic input-output 00:35:52.01000:35:52.020 lifecycle analysis tool they basically 00:35:54.32000:35:54.330 go on for all sectors of the economy 00:35:56.69000:35:56.700 it's really sweet you should check it 00:35:57.95000:35:57.960 out per dollar of economic impact or 00:36:04.07000:36:04.080 economic input in all the major industry 00:36:07.76000:36:07.770 categories across the United States what 00:36:09.38000:36:09.390 kind of error missions water emissions 00:36:10.82000:36:10.830 water consumption water withdrawals do 00:36:12.34900:36:12.359 you get out so what we did to get at the 00:36:15.62000:36:15.630 province was basically try to evaluate 00:36:18.46000:36:18.470 what's or in this case I think this 00:36:21.83000:36:21.840 examples for the chemicals but we did a 00:36:23.33000:36:23.340 pretty similar thing for province and 00:36:25.21000:36:25.220 try to think about what actually goes 00:36:27.17000:36:27.180 into that so here we looked at basically 00:36:30.97000:36:30.980 chemical manufacturing tried to figure 00:36:33.65000:36:33.660 out from a couple of other studies that 00:36:35.51000:36:35.520 have been done about how many dollars 00:36:36.85900:36:36.869 worth of chemicals go into each well and 00:36:40.31000:36:40.320 then throw it into the tool what we 00:36:42.50000:36:42.510 decided for our low estimate was that we 00:36:44.33900:36:44.349 would only use the water that was 00:36:45.50900:36:45.519 directly being put into into that 00:36:48.63000:36:48.640 chemical manufacturer so here like if 00:36:51.39000:36:51.400 these are all of the water withdrawals 00:36:53.24900:36:53.259 through the whole fuel chain going all 00:36:54.80900:36:54.819 the way back to grain farming as you see 00:36:56.70000:36:56.710 this is again where you start to get 00:36:58.07900:36:58.089 layers upon layers upon layers a 00:37:01.64000:37:01.650 conservative way of looking at how much 00:37:03.56900:37:03.579 water's actually going into the chemical 00:37:04.92000:37:04.930 manufacturing is just to look at the 00:37:06.53900:37:06.549 chemical manufacturing line so that was 00:37:08.72900:37:08.739 our low estimate on the highest emmitt 00:37:10.68000:37:10.690 we assumed that all of this and this is 00:37:13.62000:37:13.630 a withdrawal basis but we assumed all 00:37:15.87000:37:15.880 water withdrawals that are associated 00:37:17.16000:37:17.170 with chemical production were counted as 00:37:21.12000:37:21.130 consumption with the exception of the 00:37:23.13000:37:23.140 power generation so we assumed about 1% 00:37:25.04900:37:25.059 of the water that was withdrawn for 00:37:26.67000:37:26.680 power generation that was feeding these 00:37:28.25900:37:28.269 chemical plants was actually being 00:37:30.12000:37:30.130 consumed it's a fairly typical ratio and 00:37:32.84900:37:32.859 then just added those all together so 00:37:34.95000:37:34.960 low estimate just direct withdrawals for 00:37:37.46900:37:37.479 chemical manufacturing high estimate 00:37:39.05900:37:39.069 direct withdrawals for everything and 00:37:42.14000:37:42.150 about 1% of the withdrawals for power 00:37:44.70000:37:44.710 generation the prop inside is a little 00:37:48.98900:37:48.999 bit different only because some of 00:37:50.27900:37:50.289 that's actually in mind so we looked at 00:37:51.69000:37:51.700 both the minds and something more like 00:37:53.48900:37:53.499 this for the manufactured ones they're 00:37:54.93000:37:54.940 ceramics so it was a different industry 00:37:56.43000:37:56.440 but similar approach 00:38:13.65000:38:13.660 yes fortunately somebody a couple of 00:38:17.05000:38:17.060 years ago actually published a study 00:38:18.28000:38:18.290 that try actually also used this data 00:38:20.86000:38:20.870 set which we figured out later and tried 00:38:23.44000:38:23.450 to get a dollars per well figure which 00:38:25.51000:38:25.520 then we could translate into a dollars 00:38:27.25000:38:27.260 per mbtu so some of that work we were 00:38:30.13000:38:30.140 able to validate with this other thing 00:38:31.72000:38:31.730 that came out in the middle of us doing 00:38:33.55000:38:33.560 this work so that was really helpful but 00:38:35.08000:38:35.090 yeah it's a data set that is pretty rich 00:38:38.56000:38:38.570 and kind of hard to get at but I think 00:38:40.69000:38:40.700 more people are starting to use it it's 00:38:42.55000:38:42.560 interesting there's a lot more detail 00:38:47.35000:38:47.360 actually um if you are interested this 00:38:50.35000:38:50.360 is an open source paper and 00:38:51.64000:38:51.650 supplementary information is all online 00:38:53.17000:38:53.180 too and there's a lot more on how we did 00:38:55.57000:38:55.580 this if your kid is okay yeah but is 00:39:00.85000:39:00.860 there a large difference between the 00:39:02.17000:39:02.180 size of the work force involved in these 00:39:03.97000:39:03.980 two different industries or did you look 00:39:06.46000:39:06.470 at that at all on water consumption well 00:39:08.23000:39:08.240 just I mean I again the water 00:39:10.30000:39:10.310 consumption of the workers would not 00:39:11.59000:39:11.600 make a big difference but I I would 00:39:13.12000:39:13.130 assume it's some coal miners are really 00:39:14.86000:39:14.870 thirsty no yeah there is a pretty big 00:39:19.66000:39:19.670 difference in total employment coal 00:39:21.25000:39:21.260 mines do not employ that many people um 00:39:23.26000:39:23.270 and because a lot of the gas stuff is 00:39:27.12000:39:27.130 rapid and geologically or geographically 00:39:30.10000:39:30.110 dispersed you do see a bit more 00:39:31.87000:39:31.880 employment on that side we started to go 00:39:34.24000:39:34.250 down the path of some of the societal 00:39:35.71000:39:35.720 impacts of using more gas in Texas 00:39:39.40000:39:39.410 versus continuing to import cold or 00:39:41.53000:39:41.540 moving away from coal and stuff like 00:39:42.82000:39:42.830 that that gets hairy very quickly um but 00:39:46.24000:39:46.250 yeah ultimately guest generates probably 00:39:48.88000:39:48.890 more labor purged per mmbtu in Texas at 00:39:52.45000:39:52.460 least might be different in other places 00:39:54.93000:39:54.940 yeah 00:40:03.64000:40:03.650 a little bit I think ultimately one of 00:40:08.92000:40:08.930 the situations there's that since they 00:40:10.45000:40:10.460 are all using the same rivers and since 00:40:12.10000:40:12.110 a lot of those taxes tend to work on 00:40:13.63000:40:13.640 inter-basin transfers rather than 00:40:15.67000:40:15.680 intercity transfers or something like 00:40:17.23000:40:17.240 that em I'm not sure how big of a change 00:40:20.62000:40:20.630 it would have made it would be really 00:40:22.39000:40:22.400 interesting to look at there might 00:40:25.33000:40:25.340 actually be some impact just because a 00:40:26.77000:40:26.780 lot of the gas plants because they tend 00:40:28.06000:40:28.070 to be cleaner where they are are more in 00:40:30.85000:40:30.860 urban areas where the coal plants are a 00:40:32.14000:40:32.150 little bit outside so like Austin for 00:40:34.06000:40:34.070 example has a couple of gas plants very 00:40:35.77000:40:35.780 very in the middle of the city and then 00:40:37.63000:40:37.640 the big coal plant 45 minutes outside 00:40:39.93000:40:39.940 same river but different water demand 00:40:43.54000:40:43.550 areas so you don't have any of the urban 00:40:45.16000:40:45.170 demand by the coal plant you have a lot 00:40:46.30000:40:46.310 of the urban demand by the gas plant so 00:40:47.80000:40:47.810 maybe we didn't look at it though yeah 00:40:59.16000:40:59.170 and I guess I don't really know 00:41:01.84000:41:01.850 what 00:41:05.21900:41:05.229 spin t-spin steam after 00:41:17.85900:41:17.869 that one I'm not an expert on I know 00:41:20.81000:41:20.820 that there are some some people talking 00:41:23.12000:41:23.130 about recovering water off of cooling 00:41:24.98000:41:24.990 towers I'm not sure how effective that 00:41:27.59000:41:27.600 is particularly at older plants so I 00:41:29.93000:41:29.940 actually I legitimately don't know so I 00:41:32.12000:41:32.130 won't pretend to um but that is an 00:41:35.09000:41:35.100 interesting question a lot of these are 00:41:38.09000:41:38.100 actually still once through though so 00:41:40.43000:41:40.440 you just you don't have a lot of 00:41:41.72000:41:41.730 evaporative loss anyway it's interesting 00:41:44.59900:41:44.609 to think about though I'm not sure on 00:41:45.98000:41:45.990 the extraction site it's a lot of the 00:41:47.57000:41:47.580 same stuff that you see elsewhere it's 00:41:48.95000:41:48.960 on the gas side reinjection recycling 00:41:52.39000:41:52.400 transportation that kind of thing on the 00:41:54.32000:41:54.330 coal side it's probably more like just 00:41:56.51000:41:56.520 finding a user downstream that is 00:41:58.43000:41:58.440 willing to put their hand up and say yes 00:42:00.02000:42:00.030 that is my water right and its 00:42:01.28000:42:01.290 associated here and therefore I'm 00:42:02.69000:42:02.700 freeing up my other water right so Texas 00:42:05.15000:42:05.160 is a little bit strange in that it has 00:42:06.98000:42:06.990 different sets of water right laws um so 00:42:10.37000:42:10.380 traditionally the the rule has been 00:42:12.56000:42:12.570 stated as biggest pump wins if it's on 00:42:14.81000:42:14.820 your property and you can pump it it's 00:42:17.03000:42:17.040 your water and that is your water right 00:42:18.59000:42:18.600 you're not restricted because of 00:42:20.87000:42:20.880 droughts and because of urbanization and 00:42:23.06000:42:23.070 stuff like that in certain areas they 00:42:24.50000:42:24.510 started to get a little bit more 00:42:25.46000:42:25.470 prescriptive about who owns right 00:42:26.84000:42:26.850 assigning senior rights junior it's all 00:42:28.43000:42:28.440 that sort of thing so it kind of depends 00:42:30.26000:42:30.270 where you are um but yet in the coal in 00:42:33.20000:42:33.210 the cold case probably just identifying 00:42:35.21000:42:35.220 somebody who's willing to speak up for 00:42:36.71000:42:36.720 that water and claim it instead of their 00:42:38.30000:42:38.310 other right would be one option yeah 00:42:53.50900:42:53.519 Oh 00:43:00.32900:43:00.339 no and the big reason for that is that 00:43:03.29900:43:03.309 we just couldn't get the data on the gas 00:43:04.68000:43:04.690 side the argument on the coal site is 00:43:08.09900:43:08.109 that because it's mandated that you meet 00:43:10.31900:43:10.329 certain quality standards you have a 00:43:11.67000:43:11.680 pretty good idea of what's in the water 00:43:12.90000:43:12.910 I would question that without actually 00:43:15.69000:43:15.700 being able to go take samples just based 00:43:17.99900:43:18.009 on the history of coal industries I 00:43:19.58900:43:19.599 think these guys are probably probably 00:43:22.52900:43:22.539 pretty close to there they're regulated 00:43:25.07900:43:25.089 limits just based on some of the other 00:43:28.04900:43:28.059 stuff that I know about those minds but 00:43:30.02900:43:30.039 yeah on the gas side we started out 00:43:33.45000:43:33.460 really hoping that we could do a lot of 00:43:34.76900:43:34.779 quality analysis and the data just 00:43:36.29900:43:36.309 aren't there so that would be great and 00:43:39.12000:43:39.130 I hope that over the next few years 00:43:40.22900:43:40.239 especially some of these more 00:43:41.40000:43:41.410 underdeveloped basins start to have more 00:43:43.34900:43:43.359 wells associated with them that we 00:43:45.56900:43:45.579 actually will be able to get more 00:43:46.68000:43:46.690 information because Texas now also has 00:43:49.44000:43:49.450 disclosure rules about what you're 00:43:50.88000:43:50.890 actually putting down hole that kind of 00:43:52.34900:43:52.359 thing so between that and a lot of 00:43:55.92000:43:55.930 research that's going on in the state 00:43:57.47900:43:57.489 because it's a it's a fairly big piece 00:43:59.75900:43:59.769 of the economy down there the gas side 00:44:01.41000:44:01.420 anyway I hope that we will have enough 00:44:04.55900:44:04.569 data to do that soon have you been able 00:44:08.00900:44:08.019 to do that out here yeah we need to keep 00:44:13.07900:44:13.089 trying because I think it would be 00:44:14.09900:44:14.109 interesting yeah 00:44:24.42000:44:24.430 w that 00:44:30.89000:44:30.900 I 00:44:33.70000:44:33.710 I phrased that poorly so like this chart 00:44:39.04000:44:39.050 applies to the stuff you're exporting to 00:44:40.63000:44:40.640 I guess what I what I should have said 00:44:44.05000:44:44.060 and how I should have said that is that 00:44:45.49000:44:45.500 we only looked at the gas that was being 00:44:46.87000:44:46.880 used in the power sector so we assumed 00:44:50.26000:44:50.270 that the gas used in the power sector 00:44:51.52000:44:51.530 has the same profiles all the guess it's 00:44:53.10900:44:53.119 being produced but we did have a little 00:44:54.91000:44:54.920 bit of a challenge initially deciding 00:44:56.65000:44:56.660 you know which gas really is being used 00:44:58.57000:44:58.580 in the power sector and if you started 00:45:00.01000:45:00.020 to add on a whole bunch of new gas 00:45:01.78000:45:01.790 demand because you started switching 00:45:02.95000:45:02.960 from coal to gas or something like that 00:45:04.32900:45:04.339 which guests would you put on first 00:45:06.33900:45:06.349 would you assign only the conventional 00:45:08.34900:45:08.359 guess its shape to produce would you 00:45:10.35900:45:10.369 assign the expensive guess that nobody 00:45:12.59900:45:12.609 maybe there's not demand for unless you 00:45:15.04000:45:15.050 start adding your own internal demand so 00:45:17.05000:45:17.060 the marginal piece of gas that you would 00:45:19.24000:45:19.250 actually burn in Texas it's not clear 00:45:21.79000:45:21.800 whether that's one of the more water 00:45:22.96000:45:22.970 intensive or one of the less water 00:45:24.16000:45:24.170 intensive pieces of guest so we 00:45:25.42000:45:25.430 ultimately went with the average but 00:45:26.95000:45:26.960 that was a little bit of a speech 00:45:28.87000:45:28.880 artifact from a long long debate that 00:45:31.78000:45:31.790 ultimately resulted in us just taking an 00:45:33.55000:45:33.560 average but yeah like you can make the 00:45:36.40000:45:36.410 argument that in the absence of external 00:45:39.09900:45:39.109 markets and if everything collapsed and 00:45:40.90000:45:40.910 you wanted to keep running power plants 00:45:42.33900:45:42.349 in Texas you just use the easiest gas to 00:45:44.58900:45:44.599 get you can also make the argument that 00:45:46.48000:45:46.490 you have all these contracts outside so 00:45:47.95000:45:47.960 you will use the hardest gas in state so 00:45:50.07000:45:50.080 but cost and water use don't always go 00:45:53.20000:45:53.210 together either so going down a rabbit 00:45:55.96000:45:55.970 hole here a little bit but we can talk 00:45:57.13000:45:57.140 about it more later if you want 00:46:04.36000:46:04.370 yeah water you store I bought because 00:46:25.01000:46:25.020 they're anywhere in the same city turns 00:46:27.35000:46:27.360 to being slow to the reception areas 00:46:35.00000:46:35.010 where the drawing down water for ipod 00:46:37.13000:46:37.140 fracture exactly yes it's partially not 00:46:43.10000:46:43.110 in every case but there are enough shale 00:46:44.78000:46:44.790 basins that and texas is agricultural 00:46:47.51000:46:47.520 enough still that yes a lot of its ranch 00:46:49.10000:46:49.110 land admittedly so it's not like the 00:46:50.75000:46:50.760 great fields of corn that you might have 00:46:52.16000:46:52.170 elsewhere but yeah I mean the lot of the 00:46:56.00000:46:56.010 Texas cattle started getting herded 00:46:58.82000:46:58.830 basically north because there wasn't 00:47:00.08000:47:00.090 enough water to keep them alive in the 00:47:01.52000:47:01.530 last couple years and so yeah it 00:47:03.05000:47:03.060 definitely is a real trade-off and one 00:47:05.36000:47:05.370 of my colleagues actually has done a 00:47:06.32000:47:06.330 little bit of work trying to see how you 00:47:07.73000:47:07.740 could do transfers between agriculture 00:47:09.50000:47:09.510 and energy production by like having the 00:47:12.47000:47:12.480 gas producers pay for more efficient 00:47:13.91000:47:13.920 watering systems and stuff like that so 00:47:15.71000:47:15.720 they are coincident for sure 00:47:22.03000:47:22.040 they're often the same people that's not 00:47:26.87000:47:26.880 universally true but just in terms of 00:47:29.15000:47:29.160 who actually has huge bits of land and 00:47:31.40000:47:31.410 who actually owns all the rights to that 00:47:33.50000:47:33.510 land because it's been in their family 00:47:34.52000:47:34.530 for a long time or whatever so they've 00:47:36.10900:47:36.119 got the mineral rights and the surface 00:47:37.33900:47:37.349 rights the ranches are where you're 00:47:39.07900:47:39.089 drilling so yes it's a trade up and I 00:47:42.02000:47:42.030 think it's it's an interesting economic 00:47:44.66000:47:44.670 thing to watch too because depending on 00:47:46.40000:47:46.410 gas prices versus beef prices for 00:47:48.82900:47:48.839 example you might trade off which one 00:47:50.59900:47:50.609 you're devoting more water to in a given 00:47:51.89000:47:51.900 year I'm speaking a bit off the cuff I 00:47:55.04000:47:55.050 actually haven't looked into that 00:47:55.91000:47:55.920 specifically but I suspect that you 00:47:58.33900:47:58.349 probably would see that effect a little 00:47:59.75000:47:59.760 bit but yeah it's it's interesting 00:48:02.56900:48:02.579 because their shale everywhere um so 00:48:09.64000:48:09.650 development is moving toward the south 00:48:11.96000:48:11.970 west because that's where the liquids 00:48:13.88000:48:13.890 are yep exact prices are low oil prices 00:48:16.13000:48:16.140 are so high so and that's a Nigeria to 00:48:18.31900:48:18.329 him interesting I don't know how many of 00:48:20.87000:48:20.880 you have seen the NASA pictures Jim and 00:48:22.64000:48:22.650 I were talking about it a little bit 00:48:23.54000:48:23.550 earlier but just looking down and being 00:48:25.16000:48:25.170 able to see all the flares in the back 00:48:26.39000:48:26.400 end and then being able to see the ego 00:48:28.33900:48:28.349 ferd as well I still have some questions 00:48:30.07900:48:30.089 about whether that's electrical lighter 00:48:31.30900:48:31.319 flares or both but the bakken's players 00:48:35.63000:48:35.64000:48:46.57000:48:46.580 it's a great place so I know Texas most 00:48:55.06000:48:55.070 of Texas is like a very strange 00:48:57.19000:48:57.200 deregulated energy 00:49:00.68000:49:00.690 it's it's what California did right 00:49:04.23000:49:04.240 before the major power crisis one of the 00:49:06.96000:49:06.970 classes I took at UT actually the 00:49:08.43000:49:08.440 professor basically walked in and is 00:49:09.78000:49:09.790 like we didn't fix any of the problems 00:49:11.19000:49:11.200 that they had but n runs out of business 00:49:12.66000:49:12.670 now so maybe we'll be okay that aside 00:49:15.15000:49:15.160 yes um it is a pretty interesting thing 00:49:18.00000:49:18.010 because you have the gas plants and the 00:49:19.98000:49:19.990 coal plants competing really really 00:49:21.48000:49:21.490 truly directly here I mean energy 00:49:23.64000:49:23.650 utilities in Texas have gotten to the 00:49:25.47000:49:25.480 point where they'll like offered to send 00:49:26.94000:49:26.950 you flowers on your birthday is one of 00:49:28.59000:49:28.600 the advantages that you have for 00:49:29.85000:49:29.860 choosing I mean it's it's pretty funny 00:49:31.65000:49:31.660 actually sometimes or like free power 00:49:34.32000:49:34.330 during the Superbowl stuff like that 00:49:35.64000:49:35.650 like it's a little gimmicky almost at 00:49:38.22000:49:38.230 this point I think UT itself actually 00:49:39.96000:49:39.970 has branded electricity now so you pay a 00:49:42.24000:49:42.250 little bit of a premium and that goes to 00:49:43.56000:49:43.570 the University anyway um it's an it's a 00:49:46.98000:49:46.990 wild market down there a bit and that 00:49:49.05000:49:49.060 does have some impacts on how these 00:49:50.52000:49:50.530 plants actually operate that I don't 00:49:53.16000:49:53.170 think that the data sets that we use 00:49:54.45000:49:54.460 necessarily incorporated most of our 00:49:56.34000:49:56.350 plant level data was kind of 2008 to 00:49:58.23000:49:58.240 2010 which is before most of the 00:50:00.69000:50:00.700 competitive completely deregulated modal 00:50:03.69000:50:03.700 market started to come online now what 00:50:08.16000:50:08.170 you would probably see is that because 00:50:09.72000:50:09.730 more coal plants and even more of the 00:50:12.18000:50:12.190 natural gas-based load plants themselves 00:50:13.64000:50:13.650 are being asked to load follow more than 00:50:17.52000:50:17.530 they were before because it's no longer 00:50:19.20000:50:19.210 as simple as just or cot saying that's 00:50:22.56000:50:22.570 the grid in Texas just saying you know 00:50:24.33000:50:24.340 you go you go you go but it's actually 00:50:26.15000:50:26.160 competitive at the time of running um 00:50:28.71000:50:28.720 you probably see efficiency drops for 00:50:31.14000:50:31.150 some of the plants and that probably 00:50:33.24000:50:33.250 means that they're using a little bit 00:50:34.68000:50:34.690 more of their water 00:50:45.47000:50:45.480 it's not my oming so yeah the the big 00:50:49.44000:50:49.450 federal swaths of land you don't have to 00:50:52.14000:50:52.150 the same extent as you do in a lot of 00:50:53.76000:50:53.770 the West proper um I think most of it's 00:50:57.90000:50:57.910 privately owned there are some really 00:50:59.04000:50:59.050 really big parks but most of the places 00:51:01.56000:51:01.570 where you actually have production I 00:51:02.81900:51:02.829 think are privately owned by Kieran 00:51:07.37000:51:07.380 depends on which public land you're 00:51:09.21000:51:09.220 talking about so like a perfect example 00:51:12.08900:51:12.099 being both UT in Texas A&M our 00:51:15.15000:51:15.160 land-grant universities one of the big 00:51:18.12000:51:18.130 issue and this is like a strange version 00:51:20.04000:51:20.050 into Texas politics but one of the big 00:51:21.59900:51:21.609 issues is that the land that the 00:51:23.91000:51:23.920 University of Texas System was given is 00:51:25.85900:51:25.869 in the Permian Basin so there's a lot of 00:51:27.96000:51:27.970 oil there that goes directly to the 00:51:29.64000:51:29.650 University that's all considered public 00:51:31.37000:51:31.380 the land that am got is a lot more 00:51:33.96000:51:33.970 agricultural less oil revenue from it so 00:51:35.88000:51:35.890 the money balance to the two schools 00:51:37.53000:51:37.540 comes out differently so like in that 00:51:38.84900:51:38.859 sense there is public land and this has 00:51:40.89000:51:40.900 an effect on how the state works but I 00:51:43.74000:51:43.750 don't know how significant that is 00:51:44.94000:51:44.950 overall
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