00:00:05.750 hello everybody and thank you for coming 00:00:07.56000:00:07.570 my name is Ken Goodman I'm on the 00:00:10.48000:00:10.490 committee of the sabzi 00:00:11.65000:00:11.660 ASHRAE group which is a group that was 00:00:13.08900:00:13.099 set up to try and bring the information 00:00:15.36900:00:15.379 of sabzi and Nashua together and 00:00:18.00000:00:18.010 normally sabzi actually have a number of 00:00:20.52900:00:20.539 events every year they're streamed 00:00:23.23000:00:23.240 online to members subsea org is the 00:00:26.89000:00:26.900 website all of the talks will be put up 00:00:28.68900:00:28.699 there afterwards so if you ever wanted 00:00:30.97000:00:30.980 to look at what they do is a wide range 00:00:33.28000:00:33.290 of topics this year and last year we had 00:00:37.24000:00:37.250 a subsea topic here in Ireland trying to 00:00:41.41000:00:41.420 bring subsea trade-offs more to the 00:00:43.84000:00:43.850 Ireland and to the Irish market so this 00:00:46.39000:00:46.400 year we got John and Paul to talk about 00:00:49.03000:00:49.040 CHP and alternative fuels we were 00:00:53.05000:00:53.060 looking at maybe expanding it a bit more 00:00:54.61000:00:54.620 so I think John slice you cover quite a 00:00:56.80000:00:56.810 lot in to do with CHP Paul is going to 00:01:01.54000:01:01.550 talk briefly 10-15 minutes on CHP in 00:01:06.31000:01:06.320 Ireland what's available from the sei 00:01:08.41000:01:08.420 and what angle the SI I have on CHP CHP 00:01:13.06000:01:13.070 I think and Paul you can correct me if 00:01:14.41000:01:14.420 I'm wrong 00:01:15.04000:01:15.050 more than likely I am CHP and Ireland 00:01:18.39000:01:18.400 hasn't had the optic that I think we 00:01:21.16000:01:21.170 could here have in Ireland specifically 00:01:23.74000:01:23.750 with the pharmaceutical and the larger 00:01:25.78000:01:25.790 industrial clients around the country 00:01:28.08000:01:28.090 it's a great technology I've seen it 00:01:30.28000:01:30.290 working specifically if you have a 00:01:32.68000:01:32.690 constant heating load and you get free 00:01:36.21900:01:36.229 electricity but I'll let these guys talk 00:01:38.77000:01:38.780 about it I'm not by any means an expert 00:01:40.42000:01:40.430 in us so without further ado I introduce 00:01:42.64000:01:42.650 Paul Martin so Paul is the sei program 00:01:47.08000:01:47.090 manager and he's also the city Ireland 00:01:49.21000:01:49.220 chair thank you how you doing thank you 00:01:54.85000:01:54.860 Ken for having us here today 00:01:56.14000:01:56.150 yeah I'm from SCA I use technical 00:01:59.14000:01:59.150 standards development manager program 00:02:00.91000:02:00.920 manager not managing yet and I am 00:02:03.94000:02:03.950 currently sabzi Ireland chairperson so 00:02:06.71900:02:06.729 Ken asked if I could get some people to 00:02:09.82000:02:09.830 talk from SCA I and all of those three 00:02:12.30900:02:12.319 people can't make it so I'm gonna try 00:02:14.14000:02:14.150 and combine my talk the three people on 00:02:16.60000:02:16.610 what they know and I'll just give you a 00:02:18.88000:02:18.890 bit of air and I 00:02:19.67000:02:19.680 where s CAI and Ireland are going in 00:02:22.81900:02:22.829 terms of CHP I'm also gonna speak a 00:02:25.64000:02:25.650 little bit about the SS or H which is 00:02:28.06900:02:28.079 the Support Scheme for renewable heat 00:02:30.41000:02:30.420 which in other districts would have been 00:02:32.24000:02:32.250 called the RHI so that was announced in 00:02:35.55900:02:35.569 2017 so I'll give you a little bit of an 00:02:38.05900:02:38.069 outline on that it's still very much in 00:02:40.03900:02:40.049 its infancy but I can we can talk around 00:02:43.42900:02:43.439 it anyway today so again the three 00:02:46.09900:02:46.109 people that were going to be here was 00:02:47.56900:02:47.579 Matthew Clancy who was a head of CHP in 00:02:50.27000:02:50.280 biomass and Ray Langton who's in charge 00:02:53.50900:02:53.519 of the SS or hedge scheme and Martin 00:02:56.69000:02:56.700 Holley from Cork who's in charge of our 00:02:58.64000:02:58.650 statistics and everything so I'm just 00:03:00.44000:03:00.450 going to start with an intro about the 00:03:02.05900:03:02.069 trends around CHP then I'm going to talk 00:03:06.02000:03:06.030 about the support available around CHP 00:03:08.42000:03:08.430 in Ireland currently and then around the 00:03:10.81900:03:10.829 support scheme for renewable heat so the 00:03:16.06900:03:16.079 current trends so that's the line of 00:03:18.17000:03:18.180 where CHP is at the moment currently 00:03:22.87900:03:22.889 with a growth rate of about 2.1 percent 00:03:24.81900:03:24.829 you'll see that there's a real spike 00:03:28.06900:03:28.079 there in 2005 and that's with other 00:03:30.94900:03:30.959 aluminium in Limerick so pitching along 00:03:35.39000:03:35.400 there we're looking at overall 00:03:37.67000:03:37.680 installations currently around 350 00:03:40.21900:03:40.229 megawatts II and by 2020 were looking 00:03:44.33000:03:44.340 about 450 and then to kind of break it 00:03:48.61900:03:48.629 down into the two areas and the slides 00:03:51.02000:03:51.030 that I'm taking from here or actually 00:03:52.67000:03:52.680 from the CHP and document the 2007 00:03:56.96000:03:56.970 report that was done by Martin Harley so 00:03:58.81900:03:58.829 this is all fully available down on sei 00:04:00.97900:04:00.989 his website but when you look at the 00:04:03.14000:04:03.150 food the large industry the food and 00:04:05.14900:04:05.159 farmer you can see the various areas 00:04:07.72900:04:07.739 that it takes we talked about organise 00:04:10.55000:04:10.560 down in Limerick and that is where the 00:04:12.55900:04:12.569 major installation is in this country 00:04:15.61900:04:15.629 and the total is about 47 in total then 00:04:20.02900:04:20.039 if we look many around CHP in smaller 00:04:23.36000:04:23.370 areas such as district 18 in hotels with 00:04:26.60000:04:26.610 the swimming pools and all the rest in 00:04:28.43000:04:28.440 nursing homes were talking about 234 so 00:04:32.57000:04:32.580 it's a lower 00:04:33.35000:04:33.360 pasty of the heat pump which is more 00:04:34.93900:04:34.949 common in Ireland and then this is just 00:04:39.40900:04:39.419 a short slide based on what kind of 00:04:42.26000:04:42.270 fuels dominate our feed these CHP units 00:04:46.30900:04:46.319 as you can see the majority and I know 00:04:48.49900:04:48.509 John's going to go into it a bit later 00:04:50.14900:04:50.159 that majority of this is natural gas 00:04:52.05900:04:52.069 well we see that and there are a few 00:04:55.58000:04:55.590 that the most there would be biogas as 00:04:58.39900:04:58.409 well so there is an increase a slight 00:05:01.82000:05:01.830 increase 00:05:02.67900:05:02.689 so this slide here again from the 2017 00:05:06.26000:05:06.270 report will show the penetration in 00:05:08.99000:05:09.000 relation to district heating systems as 00:05:10.99900:05:11.009 you all know dissipations systems aren't 00:05:14.36000:05:14.370 that common in Ireland so were in kind 00:05:16.21900:05:16.229 of about seven-and-a-half percent 00:05:17.36000:05:17.370 compared to other European countries on 00:05:22.33900:05:22.349 this slide here this is how the 00:05:25.73000:05:25.740 commission of utility regulation 00:05:28.14900:05:28.159 recognizes CHP so it recognizes it under 00:05:31.96900:05:31.979 its scheme as being useful heat they'll 00:05:35.02900:05:35.039 want if you want to kind of register 00:05:36.74000:05:36.750 your installation they'll want access to 00:05:38.80900:05:38.819 the data you have to report annually and 00:05:42.26000:05:42.270 also there'll be audits carried out on 00:05:44.74900:05:44.759 your installation and that will tie you 00:05:47.48000:05:47.490 into another area around that the tax 00:05:50.68900:05:50.699 credits that you can get on that so 00:05:54.14000:05:54.150 support for CHP SceI currently have the 00:05:57.80000:05:57.810 e EOS scheme and this scheme has been 00:05:59.95900:05:59.969 known for a number of years now and this 00:06:02.45000:06:02.460 is around where the polluter pays so all 00:06:04.96900:06:04.979 of your utility companies etc are trying 00:06:07.82000:06:07.830 they have developed the more fuel that 00:06:11.68900:06:11.699 they say in in terms of carbon the more 00:06:14.57000:06:14.580 they have to give back in terms of 00:06:16.36900:06:16.379 energy efficient installations so the 00:06:20.24000:06:20.250 EOS has kind of three areas it would 00:06:22.21900:06:22.229 have fuel poor it would have domestic 00:06:24.05000:06:24.060 installations you'll probably see a lot 00:06:25.85000:06:25.860 of I was going to name them but I can't 00:06:28.90900:06:28.919 kind of utility suppliers knocking on 00:06:30.67900:06:30.689 the door saying we can give you we can 00:06:32.17900:06:32.189 insulate your house we can do this 00:06:33.70900:06:33.719 that's all because of the targets there 00:06:35.89900:06:35.909 that they have to achieve but there also 00:06:38.08900:06:38.099 have an industrial are a commercial 00:06:40.04000:06:40.050 target as well and this is where CHP 00:06:42.55900:06:42.569 comes in so we do recognize CHP 00:06:46.31000:06:46.320 and and we would see it not too 00:06:49.07000:06:49.080 different from the utility regulator in 00:06:51.71000:06:51.720 terms of when we give you credits for it 00:06:54.32000:06:54.330 it must be your own heat that you're 00:06:56.87000:06:56.880 using in your area with a calculator on 00:06:59.45000:06:59.460 the SE AI website it's based around an 00:07:02.21000:07:02.220 x2 of the energy efficiency directive 00:07:04.21000:07:04.220 2012 and so what we want to make sure 00:07:08.18000:07:08.190 that the heat that you are creating on 00:07:10.88000:07:10.890 the CHP is not dumped and so what is 00:07:15.11000:07:15.120 this scheme really it's it's kind of as 00:07:17.24000:07:17.250 much you'll get involved with the 00:07:19.55000:07:19.560 utility suppliers and they will give you 00:07:21.53000:07:21.540 financial support and technical support 00:07:23.84000:07:23.850 around your CHP if you're thinking of 00:07:26.00000:07:26.010 importing it into it into a unit the tax 00:07:30.56000:07:30.570 relief is not my expertise so I'm just 00:07:32.96000:07:32.970 going to leave the slide up there in 00:07:34.40000:07:34.410 terms it is recognized if you look at 00:07:37.04000:07:37.050 the kind of the utility regulator there 00:07:40.07000:07:40.080 it certifies the CHP plants and you can 00:07:43.19000:07:43.200 get full tax relief in terms of the 00:07:44.78000:07:44.790 carbon tax that is based around the fuel 00:07:50.20000:07:50.210 so the interest in one our new the new 00:07:55.55000:07:55.560 air show in town is the SS or H as I 00:07:58.97000:07:58.980 said it's very much along the lines of 00:08:01.55000:08:01.560 the or H I that was in the UK but we 00:08:04.88000:08:04.890 have a chance to learn from the mistakes 00:08:07.19000:08:07.200 that were made and from all the good 00:08:09.29000:08:09.300 installations that were there as well so 00:08:11.21000:08:11.220 the government announced in December 00:08:13.93000:08:13.940 2017 that SCA I would administer the 00:08:17.24000:08:17.250 scheme and we developed a program so 00:08:18.86000:08:18.870 we're still very much in the development 00:08:20.78000:08:20.790 stage of the program we're still dealing 00:08:23.48000:08:23.490 with the terms and conditions of that 00:08:25.43000:08:25.440 program in other words what size of unit 00:08:27.77000:08:27.780 should you have etc etc what technical 00:08:30.20000:08:30.210 standards are based around that what are 00:08:32.20900:08:32.219 we expecting you to do so earlier on we 00:08:36.05000:08:36.060 can see that it's really around 00:08:38.75000:08:38.760 standards and standards of installations 00:08:40.94000:08:40.950 where other installations would have 00:08:42.20000:08:42.210 felt would be in relation to buildings 00:08:44.69000:08:44.700 that were poorly insulated that won't be 00:08:46.82000:08:46.830 a part we more than likely have a 00:08:48.23000:08:48.240 minimum BER that you're going to have 00:08:49.88000:08:49.890 for that building so we make sure that 00:08:51.86000:08:51.870 in energy efficient heat that you're 00:08:53.78000:08:53.790 using is being used to the best access 00:08:56.18000:08:56.190 and it's not just heating a draft as 00:08:58.73000:08:58.740 such 00:08:59.18900:08:59.199 and he says it advanced but I can't 00:09:02.51900:09:02.529 remember 00:09:02.84900:09:02.859 anyway I'll move on so the target really 00:09:05.84900:09:05.859 is to looking at about three percentage 00:09:08.75900:09:08.769 points that we need to increase and this 00:09:11.30900:09:11.319 is all based on naturally our European 00:09:13.47000:09:13.480 targets that we need to meet so they'll 00:09:15.72000:09:15.730 be financially support for the 00:09:17.06900:09:17.079 installation and actually as I said 00:09:18.72000:09:18.730 before they'll all be energy-efficient 00:09:20.99900:09:21.009 installations like I gave you the 00:09:22.53000:09:22.540 example of the factory at a commercial 00:09:24.92900:09:24.939 building that needs to be insulated that 00:09:26.69900:09:26.709 a little bit more than it normally is we 00:09:29.28000:09:29.290 also have let's say and biomass has been 00:09:32.46000:09:32.470 used for a process we would want to make 00:09:35.87900:09:35.889 sure that all of those pipes are 00:09:37.67900:09:37.689 properly insulated that there's energy 00:09:39.29900:09:39.309 efficient pumps etc etc on that unit so 00:09:45.29900:09:45.309 the core principles of the scheme I kind 00:09:47.06900:09:47.079 of explained already really are based 00:09:48.78000:09:48.790 around rigorous standards in terms of 00:09:52.43900:09:52.449 will be looking naturally the building 00:09:53.87900:09:53.889 regulations we can't contradict them we 00:09:56.84900:09:56.859 have the construction products 00:09:58.19900:09:58.209 installation there's en standards 00:09:59.51900:09:59.529 there's sabzi guides there's ASHRAE 00:10:01.82900:10:01.839 guides all these type of guides will be 00:10:03.78000:10:03.790 used air quality standards as well 00:10:06.29900:10:06.309 because now we're kind of we're talking 00:10:08.75900:10:08.769 about supply should have said at the 00:10:09.96000:10:09.970 start when I'm talk about SS or hate 00:10:11.75900:10:11.769 this doesn't include CHP but naturally 00:10:14.36900:10:14.379 of biomass installation will have a 00:10:16.40900:10:16.419 great add-on to that is CHP so these 00:10:19.85900:10:19.869 kind of things all work together so we 00:10:23.18900:10:23.199 have to make sure the designers in the 00:10:24.65900:10:24.669 installations are competent and receipts 00:10:28.28900:10:28.299 of payment things like this will be 00:10:30.31900:10:30.329 subject to tax clearance so where is the 00:10:34.22900:10:34.239 scheme going at the moment it's looking 00:10:36.23900:10:36.249 at two primary technologies at the 00:10:38.42900:10:38.439 moment it is looking at heat pumps where 00:10:40.55900:10:40.569 there'll be enough from grant yeah we're 00:10:42.98900:10:42.999 still working out the levels and how to 00:10:44.72000:10:44.730 give that grant for the best value for 00:10:47.27900:10:47.289 the Irish consumer and the biomass side 00:10:50.93900:10:50.949 of the grant will be based on a tariff 00:10:53.36900:10:53.379 or you will be paid per unit of heat 00:10:56.12900:10:56.139 that you use to energy efficiency energy 00:10:58.76900:10:58.779 efficient heat so they're naturally 00:11:00.80900:11:00.819 there will be all this energy 00:11:02.29900:11:02.309 eligibility that we will be talking 00:11:04.07900:11:04.089 about and it looks like the scheme will 00:11:08.60900:11:08.619 start off slow but it will build as I 00:11:11.10000:11:11.110 say as the the installations 00:11:13.12000:11:13.130 so there would be a mentoring scheme 00:11:15.73000:11:15.740 there so we're not just asking people 00:11:17.41000:11:17.420 just in still install any and it will 00:11:19.81000:11:19.820 biomass scheme into their Marshall 00:11:24.10000:11:24.110 buildings so SCA I as to say we're in 00:11:28.57000:11:28.580 the very early days but we are speaking 00:11:31.21000:11:31.220 to a lot of consultants who were 00:11:32.68000:11:32.690 involved in the Rho u scheme over in the 00:11:34.75000:11:34.760 UK talking about the standards that they 00:11:37.87000:11:37.880 use naturally there's a legal and 00:11:39.73000:11:39.740 peculiar man site around all of this 00:11:41.86000:11:41.870 this communications our website will 00:11:44.20000:11:44.210 need to be updated a lot more to support 00:11:45.94000:11:45.950 people in terms of guidance what to do 00:11:48.52000:11:48.530 information for planners information for 00:11:51.40000:11:51.410 business owners maybe there would be in 00:11:53.76000:11:53.770 information on how to fund these type of 00:11:55.93000:11:55.940 schemes and we're going to have to 00:11:58.00000:11:58.010 inspect a lot of these schemes as well 00:11:59.89000:11:59.900 so we're taking on or taking on quite a 00:12:02.02000:12:02.030 lot here so we'll be going out making 00:12:04.12000:12:04.130 sure read in the heat meter is for a 00:12:05.53000:12:05.540 biomass unit let's just say maybe making 00:12:07.87000:12:07.880 sure that those units are you know 00:12:10.36000:12:10.370 whether they're to the Norwegian 00:12:11.95000:12:11.960 standard or whether it's the UK like the 00:12:13.93000:12:13.940 Norwegian standard would have a clock so 00:12:15.67000:12:15.680 you can tamper with it but the UK you 00:12:17.41000:12:17.420 could just pull out the probe and all of 00:12:19.39000:12:19.400 a sudden it was clicking up money in 00:12:21.88000:12:21.890 terms of energy and you were being paid 00:12:24.22000:12:24.230 for it again will be the HR side of it 00:12:26.92000:12:26.930 the finance and the IT side of it as 00:12:29.44000:12:29.450 well so these are all the kind of areas 00:12:32.26000:12:32.270 that SCA I are taking on and this again 00:12:35.11000:12:35.120 if you were to ask me when will it start 00:12:37.27000:12:37.280 more than likely 00:12:38.68000:12:38.690 we are drawing up the kind of T's and 00:12:40.90000:12:40.910 C's at the moment with the Department of 00:12:42.91000:12:42.920 Energy 00:12:43.84000:12:43.850 so we're reporting those to them and 00:12:46.27000:12:46.280 they will decide on if they're 00:12:48.13000:12:48.140 acceptable or not and then we move into 00:12:50.23000:12:50.240 the scheme so more than likely we'll be 00:12:52.33000:12:52.340 looking into the second half of the year 00:12:54.28000:12:54.290 before you see any of these schemes 00:12:55.96000:12:55.970 common online being assessed it's 00:12:59.44000:12:59.450 important that at this stage there's 00:13:02.17000:13:02.180 going to be no grandfather in rule so 00:13:04.27000:13:04.280 what that means is that any existing 00:13:05.92000:13:05.930 installation that is there will not be 00:13:08.44000:13:08.450 incentivized that's not in stone but 00:13:11.59000:13:11.600 that's the way it more than likely is 00:13:13.24000:13:13.250 going ken can pass on the slides or I 00:13:16.57000:13:16.580 know the gentleman from engineers 00:13:18.13000:13:18.140 Ireland who's controlling this in a 00:13:19.60000:13:19.610 laptop open the cafe is he's gonna send 00:13:22.87000:13:22.880 her up the slide so all the links will 00:13:24.40000:13:24.410 be there so primarily the links as I 00:13:26.59000:13:26.600 said 00:13:26.92000:13:26.930 do take a look at the CHP report 2007 00:13:29.86000:13:29.870 and said I know John will be referring 00:13:31.36000:13:31.370 to it and that is all I have to say if 00:13:34.87000:13:34.880 you've any questions for me if I can't 00:13:37.96000:13:37.970 answer them I will pass them on to my 00:13:39.76000:13:39.770 colleagues ken will take your details as 00:13:42.04000:13:42.050 I have to run off to another event 00:13:44.82000:13:44.830 tonight so thank you very much for your 00:13:47.47000:13:47.480 time no just I we do have an online 00:14:00.82000:14:00.830 audience as well so if anybody is online 00:14:03.85000:14:03.860 can hear me and probably can see me and 00:14:05.76900:14:05.779 if you send me an email and I with your 00:14:09.07000:14:09.080 question and I will get it responded to 00:14:18.96000:14:18.970 so the second speaker is mr. John hight 00:14:24.04000:14:24.050 John is the National Sales Manager for 00:14:26.74000:14:26.750 centrica business solutions John is 00:14:29.32000:14:29.330 mechanical and manufacturing engineer 00:14:31.03000:14:31.040 but over 10 years experience in the USA 00:14:33.25000:14:33.260 the UK and Ireland in low-carbon 00:14:35.98000:14:35.990 technology industries he's an 00:14:38.41000:14:38.420 experienced in a full range of district 00:14:39.91000:14:39.920 heating technologies metering tariffs 00:14:42.04000:14:42.050 and escort services within Centrica John 00:14:46.03000:14:46.040 manages a team to deliver CHP solutions 00:14:48.13000:14:48.140 to their clients in both the UK and 00:14:49.66000:14:49.670 Ireland in the commercial residential 00:14:51.99000:14:52.000 district heating food beverage 00:14:54.01000:14:54.020 manufacturing healthcare and 00:14:55.39000:14:55.400 pharmaceutical sectors so without 00:14:57.46000:14:57.470 further ado John 00:15:02.94900:15:02.959 thanks Ken and take your ball that was 00:15:05.43900:15:05.449 very insightful let me just do slides 00:15:10.26900:15:10.279 yep so thank you for inviting me along 00:15:12.67000:15:12.680 today as Ken has already said I'm from 00:15:17.49900:15:17.509 centrica business solutions raise our 00:15:20.98000:15:20.990 hands does anybody know who centric is 00:15:22.68900:15:22.699 or what we do to two people 00:15:27.48900:15:27.499 okay well Centrica is the the owning 00:15:32.79900:15:32.809 company that we own British Gas borer 00:15:36.34000:15:36.350 gosh and direct energy in the US so we 00:15:40.96000:15:40.970 have a turnover both 30 billion per 00:15:43.35900:15:43.369 annum and the company I work for is 00:15:46.38900:15:46.399 energy combined power and we were 00:15:48.73000:15:48.740 required by Centrica in 2016 so what I'm 00:15:53.67900:15:53.689 going to talk to you today about is 00:15:55.38900:15:55.399 combined heat and power I'm gonna give 00:15:58.17900:15:58.189 you an introduction to it I'm gonna move 00:16:00.06900:16:00.079 quickly along I've quite a lot of slides 00:16:02.85000:16:02.860 so I keep you entertained if anybody has 00:16:06.00900:16:06.019 any question and they want to just show 00:16:07.72000:16:07.730 out there go for it you know I'd want 00:16:09.57900:16:09.589 this to be dead by a power point I want 00:16:11.13900:16:11.149 to have a bit of a bit of banter okay so 00:16:14.16900:16:14.179 so we move on check out our websites 00:16:18.46000:16:18.470 we've allowed on there does a lot of 00:16:19.86900:16:19.879 videos and things you can have a look at 00:16:21.36900:16:21.379 and it really kind of simplifies the 00:16:23.65000:16:23.660 kind of utility world that we operate in 00:16:25.38900:16:25.399 so so please check that out and this is 00:16:27.75900:16:27.769 a list of the contents we're going to 00:16:29.11000:16:29.120 look at there's nine sections here I 00:16:30.69900:16:30.709 think we'll get to probably section 7 in 00:16:33.04000:16:33.050 an hour but maybe we will take a vote at 00:16:35.23000:16:35.240 the end of that and if you want me to 00:16:36.34000:16:36.350 continue I can but I think we can hang 00:16:38.73900:16:38.749 around afterwards can't can't we there's 00:16:40.21000:16:40.220 a nice establishment here that we can 00:16:42.69900:16:42.709 have a refreshment and chat further so 00:16:45.91000:16:45.920 just to give you a quick overview of who 00:16:47.61900:16:47.629 we are because only two people here 00:16:49.23900:16:49.249 knows and we are the company I work for 00:16:53.03900:16:53.049 directly is energy combined power and 00:16:56.11000:16:56.120 we've been a CHP manufacturer in 00:16:57.61000:16:57.620 Manchester for 35 years 00:16:59.19900:16:59.209 and as I said earlier we're required by 00:17:01.11900:17:01.129 centrica and now we work all over the 00:17:03.69900:17:03.709 world yeah so 00:17:10.73000:17:10.740 so we distributed CHP into America into 00:17:16.26000:17:16.270 Japan Australia and with a big install 00:17:18.44900:17:18.459 base in Ireland with Tim technology and 00:17:22.31900:17:22.329 we also have a big install base in 00:17:24.36000:17:24.370 Europe so Tim technology is our partner 00:17:27.56900:17:27.579 here and that provides CHP service 00:17:30.23000:17:30.240 operation a maintenance and they're 00:17:32.16000:17:32.170 based in Limerick Robert Brock Road is 00:17:34.47000:17:34.480 here today from technology if anybody 00:17:36.63000:17:36.640 wants to speed on letter so in Ireland 00:17:39.69000:17:39.700 we have over 200 installations of small 00:17:42.81000:17:42.820 scale CHP and we've been working with 00:17:45.60000:17:45.610 them technology for about 25 years so a 00:17:48.21000:17:48.220 very solid partner and these are some of 00:17:51.00000:17:51.010 the installations so we work with carry 00:17:53.01000:17:53.020 group we work with the health board and 00:17:55.59000:17:55.600 a lot of hotel industry and leisure 00:17:58.80000:17:58.810 centres so if we think back to Paul 00:18:01.14000:18:01.150 slides earlier about the different 00:18:02.40000:18:02.410 sectors you could see that there's a lot 00:18:04.59000:18:04.600 of leisure and what have an industry 00:18:06.24000:18:06.250 there also a lot of government buildings 00:18:08.34000:18:08.350 as well and these are some of the people 00:18:11.34000:18:11.350 we deal with okay so we end up dealing 00:18:16.62000:18:16.630 with them on a long-term basis after 00:18:18.75000:18:18.760 installation after practical completion 00:18:21.66000:18:21.670 it's about running a CHP and I think 00:18:25.56000:18:25.570 people need to know more about what 00:18:27.75000:18:27.760 happens to CHP over over its lifetime 00:18:29.46000:18:29.470 we're talking about 10 to 15 years the 00:18:32.64000:18:32.650 CHP is running um what I'm talking about 00:18:36.03000:18:36.040 mainly today is reciprocating engines 00:18:38.03000:18:38.040 and those engines are like your care and 00:18:40.70000:18:40.710 if your car was running like these 00:18:43.80000:18:43.810 engines 24/7 365 it's the equivalent of 00:18:47.46000:18:47.470 300 thousand miles around the world so 00:18:51.00000:18:51.010 if your car was got to maintain at every 00:18:52.92000:18:52.930 50,000 miles you'd be in there about six 00:18:55.62000:18:55.630 times so it doesn't translate as simple 00:18:58.44000:18:58.450 as that well what it does add up to is a 00:19:00.39000:19:00.400 lot of maintenance for the generation on 00:19:02.94000:19:02.950 site but I'll get into that a bit more 00:19:04.77000:19:04.780 detail so why are we talking about CHP 00:19:08.43000:19:08.440 okay what's the big deal with CHP I 00:19:10.47000:19:10.480 suppose people are here more and more 00:19:12.03000:19:12.040 now are you 00:19:12.69000:19:12.700 CHP popping up maybe on planning 00:19:15.21000:19:15.220 applications carb and things like that 00:19:17.19000:19:17.200 and this is a question for the audience 00:19:19.68000:19:19.690 now I'm gonna try and get you talking 00:19:21.24000:19:21.250 you know 00:19:21.82000:19:21.830 I prefer to have a bit of a two-way 00:19:23.98000:19:23.990 communication I don't like the sound of 00:19:25.89900:19:25.909 my own voice too much so 00:19:28.01900:19:28.029 CHP does anybody want to show hands is 00:19:30.78900:19:30.799 the generator few people a boiler you're 00:19:38.40900:19:38.419 ruining it mister you know he's right he 00:19:41.79900:19:41.809 said both you know it's a trick question 00:19:43.93000:19:43.940 and I knew guys like you were there and 00:19:46.00000:19:46.010 ladies would know this chp comes about 00:19:50.64900:19:50.659 from the combined output from burning a 00:19:55.89900:19:55.909 fuel and utilizing the heat from the 00:19:59.25900:19:59.269 jacket and the exhaust while also 00:20:02.08000:20:02.090 turning a generator and utilizing that 00:20:04.33000:20:04.340 electricity as well so against that is 00:20:07.48000:20:07.490 in the name and I knew you guys would 00:20:09.49000:20:09.500 know all about that so the next few 00:20:11.16900:20:11.179 slides I'm going to quickly move on yeah 00:20:13.33000:20:13.340 so we're talking about the primary 00:20:14.28900:20:14.299 energy and this is what we see today we 00:20:17.68000:20:17.690 see a lot of waste from electricity 00:20:19.29900:20:19.309 generation further afield provincial 00:20:22.09000:20:22.100 borders are much better we've got that 00:20:23.91900:20:23.929 kind of 80% efficiency and I would say 00:20:26.08000:20:26.090 even higher than that and today's world 00:20:27.97000:20:27.980 with condensing boilers CHP looks a 00:20:30.73000:20:30.740 little bit like this where you're 00:20:31.93000:20:31.940 getting this ratio of 35% electricity to 00:20:34.60000:20:34.610 45% heat and when you stack them up side 00:20:38.20000:20:38.210 by side it looks like this so the gain 00:20:40.48000:20:40.490 here really and we could say maybe in 00:20:43.12000:20:43.130 today's world the combined efficiency at 00:20:45.12900:20:45.139 the top there you could say it maybe at 00:20:48.03900:20:48.049 65% okay 00:20:50.40900:20:50.419 these figures are taken from the carbon 00:20:52.14900:20:52.159 first in 2004 by the way so let's add on 00:20:55.06000:20:55.070 a bit more here for for a more efficient 00:20:57.85000:20:57.860 society we live in and if we looked at 00:21:00.31000:21:00.320 the higher heating value of 80% for CHP 00:21:03.73000:21:03.740 you could see the saving error of about 00:21:05.76900:21:05.779 20 maybe 25 percent and from a primary 00:21:09.31000:21:09.320 fuel point of view that's what we're 00:21:11.83000:21:11.840 talking about that's why you see HP fits 00:21:14.56000:21:14.570 well from a carbon point of view this is 00:21:17.86000:21:17.870 a marginal abatement curve from the NHS 00:21:20.32000:21:20.330 where they've shown that combined heat 00:21:22.14900:21:22.159 and power above any other technology or 00:21:24.75900:21:24.769 process they could implement in any 00:21:26.25900:21:26.269 hospital in the UK has the greatest 00:21:28.48000:21:28.490 savings for carbon that also happens 00:21:32.52900:21:32.539 because hospitals are running 24/7 would 00:21:34.96000:21:34.970 have consist 00:21:35.47000:21:35.480 and Lord for heat and electricity okay 00:21:37.96000:21:37.970 but but this is why CHP is coming to the 00:21:40.75000:21:40.760 fore at the moment okay 00:21:43.86000:21:43.870 so I'll move on quickly 00:21:46.30000:21:46.310 where does CHP work best well CHP will 00:21:50.14000:21:50.150 work in most instances where you have a 00:21:53.56000:21:53.570 load for electricity and a suitable note 00:21:56.35000:21:56.360 for you as well and usually there's a 00:21:58.69000:21:58.700 bit more heat in the CHP you might have 00:22:00.88000:22:00.890 a ratio of about one to 1.3 for CHP from 00:22:07.15000:22:07.160 electricity so if you have areas like 00:22:10.30000:22:10.310 hotels larger centers hospitals that are 00:22:13.33000:22:13.340 hungry for more heat well they will use 00:22:15.76000:22:15.770 the electricity as well all the time 00:22:17.82000:22:17.830 okay so you can see here if you look 00:22:20.65000:22:20.660 around a clockwise hotels leisure 00:22:22.21000:22:22.220 schools will have a good load but 00:22:24.31000:22:24.320 they'll have that seasonal time when 00:22:26.26000:22:26.270 they won't have a good law that summer 00:22:28.05000:22:28.060 data centers are where we would use 00:22:31.81000:22:31.820 trigeneration we use absorption chilling 00:22:34.87000:22:34.880 combined with the CHP that gives you a 00:22:37.99000:22:38.000 third output from this technology okay 00:22:42.75000:22:42.760 Industrial there's always a good one 00:22:44.56000:22:44.570 where there's heat demand there plenty 00:22:46.45000:22:46.460 of electricity that can use at district 00:22:48.79000:22:48.800 heating as we we'll know mixed 00:22:51.79000:22:51.800 developments Healthcare ad we would we 00:22:54.64000:22:54.650 would use the ad gases and modified the 00:22:57.13000:22:57.140 CHP so they'd burn and generate 00:22:58.66000:22:58.670 electricity and then at the Prison 00:23:00.64000:23:00.650 Service in the UK as well a lot of 00:23:02.83000:23:02.840 people sticky situations this is the 00:23:09.31000:23:09.320 range for micro CHP from four kilowatt 00:23:11.77000:23:11.780 up to 50 kilowatt I think in in the in 00:23:14.92000:23:14.930 Europe it's defined as micro and above 00:23:16.99000:23:17.000 50 then is a small-scale CHP and we 00:23:19.60000:23:19.610 package a manufacturer at all in 00:23:21.13000:23:21.140 Manchester that's what a typical small 00:23:24.88000:23:24.890 scale CHP would look like important 00:23:27.70000:23:27.710 thing to note is access from front and 00:23:29.29000:23:29.300 back all around for maintenance 00:23:31.57000:23:31.580 I'll keep hammering on about maintenance 00:23:33.25000:23:33.260 by the way CHP maintenance is key to 00:23:36.07000:23:36.080 keeping a going a lot of moving parts in 00:23:38.62000:23:38.630 this engine back here and you can see 00:23:40.48000:23:40.490 the generator and that's the exhaust gas 00:23:42.34000:23:42.350 heat exchanger and then the large range 00:23:45.88000:23:45.890 of CHP goes up to about 2.4 00:23:48.94000:23:48.950 okay and that's an example there are 00:23:50.93000:23:50.940 some CHP configurations these would be 00:23:53.51000:23:53.520 bespoke and usually with factories food 00:23:56.21000:23:56.220 and drink manufacturing that kind of 00:23:58.04000:23:58.050 thing where and some sites are unusual 00:24:00.20000:24:00.210 some sites need planning application 00:24:01.94000:24:01.950 some are ad plants and we have a lot in 00:24:05.69000:24:05.700 the commercial retail sector as well 00:24:08.35000:24:08.360 that's the inside of one of our large 00:24:10.34000:24:10.350 units shows you the detail so it's a 00:24:12.59000:24:12.600 it's a high quality build in the UK okay 00:24:16.78000:24:16.790 so we've talked about CHP what why do we 00:24:20.66000:24:20.670 have CHP and where does it work I know 00:24:23.12000:24:23.130 what's in the box well what's what makes 00:24:25.40000:24:25.410 up the CHP okay so this owner is that 00:24:29.39000:24:29.400 Mouse working yep 00:24:30.74000:24:30.750 okay if we start from the left to the 00:24:32.72000:24:32.730 right here in this case we're going to 00:24:34.82000:24:34.830 talk about natural gas so the fuel in is 00:24:36.98000:24:36.990 natural gas air intake into the 00:24:39.20000:24:39.210 combustion engine because the engine 00:24:41.24000:24:41.250 needs to breathe to combust a fuel and 00:24:42.79900:24:42.809 then we have the cold water returned 00:24:44.29900:24:44.309 from the building so that's usually well 00:24:47.12000:24:47.130 in today's where the temperatures are 00:24:49.40000:24:49.410 changing all the time right there so 00:24:50.66000:24:50.670 let's say 70 80 that kind of flow return 00:24:53.45000:24:53.460 okay so let's take 70 degrees in here 00:24:56.81000:24:56.820 and we circulate that water around the 00:25:00.77000:25:00.780 jacket and as the Pistons go up and down 00:25:03.38000:25:03.390 and burn the fuel coming in that jacket 00:25:05.57000:25:05.580 gets warmer and it heats up the cold 00:25:07.82000:25:07.830 water that cold water is passed through 00:25:10.16000:25:10.170 here so let's say the cold water knows 00:25:11.69000:25:11.700 that 75 degrees as it goes into this 00:25:14.24000:25:14.250 exhaust gas heat exchanger the exhaust 00:25:17.24000:25:17.250 gases then passed through a catalytic 00:25:19.28000:25:19.290 converter that would clean up the NOx 00:25:21.79900:25:21.809 and carbon emissions and then the water 00:25:25.28000:25:25.290 you could see the color coding the earth 00:25:26.90000:25:26.910 quite easy isn't it heats up from 75 00:25:29.72000:25:29.730 degrees to 80 degrees it passes out to 00:25:32.21000:25:32.220 the building and we usually have a plate 00:25:34.34000:25:34.350 heat exchanger built within the CHP as 00:25:36.59000:25:36.600 well and we would feed as the primary 00:25:38.93000:25:38.940 boiler to feed the other boilers in the 00:25:41.41900:25:41.429 system then allowing them to to not come 00:25:44.09000:25:44.100 on as often with the CHP being the 00:25:46.34000:25:46.350 primary burner if you follow the same 00:25:49.28000:25:49.290 flow again and look at the gases you 00:25:52.70000:25:52.710 could see that the exhaust gases passed 00:25:54.59000:25:54.600 through here and at this point they're 00:25:56.57000:25:56.580 at about six hundred and twenty degrees 00:25:58.75000:25:58.760 okay by the time they exchange the heat 00:26:01.49000:26:01.500 with the water 00:26:02.15000:26:02.160 in the shell and tube heat exchanger 00:26:03.47000:26:03.480 here they're coming out of about 120 00:26:05.39000:26:05.400 degrees and and this is where we feed 00:26:08.90000:26:08.910 out into the atmosphere and we don't 00:26:11.51000:26:11.520 condense at that point some people talk 00:26:13.91000:26:13.920 about condensing to get more efficiency 00:26:15.47000:26:15.480 out of the unit 00:26:16.16000:26:16.170 but that would degrade the lifetime of 00:26:18.71000:26:18.720 the unit and there's a lot of other 00:26:20.60000:26:20.610 implications out of that so in our 00:26:22.13000:26:22.140 experience we don't condense we keep it 00:26:24.32000:26:24.330 at 120 degrees the electricity 00:26:27.98000:26:27.990 generation is a bit more straightforward 00:26:29.21000:26:29.220 you've got a coupled generator face to 00:26:32.54000:26:32.550 face with the prime mover here 00:26:33.92000:26:33.930 so as that shaft of the engine rotates 00:26:35.81000:26:35.820 the electricity is generated and fed out 00:26:38.30000:26:38.310 to the building it's not okay that makes 00:26:42.08000:26:42.090 sense so if you wanted to look at it in 00:26:47.87000:26:47.880 a different perspective there's a P&ID 00:26:50.38000:26:50.390 and what we just talked about there is 00:26:52.52000:26:52.530 everything within the box okay yep 00:27:01.09000:27:01.100 we can yep so this would be the set up 00:27:05.90000:27:05.910 just for low-temperature hot water we 00:27:09.59000:27:09.600 could have another tapping you know if 00:27:12.14000:27:12.150 you can visualize here that we would 00:27:14.78000:27:14.790 take steam off at that high temperature 00:27:16.67000:27:16.680 that and it's it's a different setup 00:27:20.93000:27:20.940 there's also in the horticultural 00:27:22.40000:27:22.410 industry we can use a the carabiner 00:27:24.59000:27:24.600 method as well so it is a there's a lot 00:27:26.72000:27:26.730 of work in in Holland where we do a lot 00:27:32.84000:27:32.850 of the horticultural industry so it 00:27:34.94000:27:34.950 becomes Quad generation almost as heat 00:27:38.39000:27:38.400 electricity and cooling and the carbon 00:27:41.93000:27:41.940 output as well just to give you a kind 00:27:46.13000:27:46.140 of a through of one of her skids 00:27:47.57000:27:47.580 you can see the engine there so we will 00:27:50.60000:27:50.610 go to a number of different engine 00:27:51.89000:27:51.900 manufacturers across Germany man merci 00:27:56.48000:27:56.490 des MTU Perkins so a lot of different 00:28:02.12000:28:02.130 engine manufacturers we use and we build 00:28:03.89000:28:03.900 them in to suit the size range that's 00:28:05.75000:28:05.760 what the heads look like they're on one 00:28:07.19000:28:07.200 of the engines and the generators again 00:28:09.98000:28:09.990 we usually stick with a standardized 00:28:12.58000:28:12.590 generator there that's what the windings 00:28:16.16000:28:16.170 look with the cover removed the exhaust 00:28:18.89000:28:18.900 gas heat exchanger 00:28:19.76000:28:19.770 that's your simple shell and tube heat 00:28:22.76000:28:22.770 exchanger it's usually the biggest piece 00:28:25.04000:28:25.050 of kit at the bottom that's it going 00:28:28.07000:28:28.080 together there in a factory and then we 00:28:31.52000:28:31.530 usually include a plate heat exchanger 00:28:33.14000:28:33.150 as well to give that hydraulic break 00:28:34.97000:28:34.980 between what happens on the skate and 00:28:36.32000:28:36.330 what happens in the building okay and 00:28:39.80000:28:39.810 the the key part that we we've worked 00:28:42.32000:28:42.330 hard on is they're controlling all this 00:28:43.79000:28:43.800 so we use a controlled system of our own 00:28:46.01000:28:46.020 making and you power it gives remote 00:28:49.01000:28:49.020 access into the CHP you can do 00:28:51.08000:28:51.090 everything remotely through that and the 00:28:53.84000:28:53.850 key point for us really and for people 00:28:56.03000:28:56.040 like Tim technology that managed this 00:28:57.98000:28:57.990 fleet for us is being able to remotely 00:29:00.44000:29:00.450 access and identify issues with the CHP 00:29:03.29000:29:03.300 or actually in some cases because of 00:29:06.05000:29:06.060 this kind of view you can identify flow 00:29:08.75000:29:08.760 and return temperatures from the 00:29:10.04000:29:10.050 building and so if there's something not 00:29:12.41000:29:12.420 feeding the 00:29:12.98900:29:12.999 PHP correctly you can identify that too 00:29:14.87900:29:14.889 so it's about transparency actually in 00:29:17.00900:29:17.019 this modern world of digital information 00:29:19.79900:29:19.809 so this is a freely available with all 00:29:22.40900:29:22.419 their see HP's at one area that's kind 00:29:25.28900:29:25.299 of hard to tell you known as the 00:29:26.51900:29:26.529 application component so everything that 00:29:28.19900:29:28.209 ties into the CHP is kind of outside of 00:29:31.85900:29:31.869 our control but I've just highlighted a 00:29:34.31900:29:34.329 few points there and we're always on 00:29:36.44900:29:36.459 hand and on Robert as well to talk about 00:29:38.21900:29:38.229 things like that so when you think about 00:29:39.95900:29:39.969 the the ventilation the gas connections 00:29:42.34900:29:42.359 the full return to the building the 00:29:44.51900:29:44.529 pumps and then the heat from radiators 00:29:47.06900:29:47.079 and he rejection hue rejection isn't 00:29:50.57900:29:50.589 something that we recommend but 00:29:52.37900:29:52.389 sometimes it's the best thing for a 00:29:53.72900:29:53.739 client to do in a certain situation but 00:29:56.18900:29:56.199 we could talk more about that so Ken 00:29:59.51900:29:59.529 asked me to talk a little bit about 00:30:00.62900:30:00.639 diffuse for CHP and my answer to that 00:30:03.20900:30:03.219 was well it's not to annouce isn't it 00:30:04.82900:30:04.839 you know we do we don't bore gosh and we 00:30:07.52900:30:07.539 have kind of a vested interest but we do 00:30:11.54900:30:11.559 actually makes here to these rotar fuels 00:30:13.55900:30:13.569 as well and I write truly a CIE so it's 00:30:17.12900:30:17.139 pretty paul has left had a few questions 00:30:19.16900:30:19.179 from and he scampered off but and this 00:30:22.91900:30:22.929 this is a really good read it gives you 00:30:24.20900:30:24.219 a good overview of what happens in 00:30:25.37900:30:25.389 Ireland and with regard CHP and I just 00:30:28.52900:30:28.539 picked out a few points one thing that 00:30:31.76900:30:31.779 caught my eye was was yeah natural gases 00:30:33.77900:30:33.789 is the is the biggest fuel that's used 00:30:35.69900:30:35.709 for CHP and it's no surprise to me 00:30:38.39900:30:38.409 really there's not a fuel pumped into 00:30:41.45900:30:41.469 every city and and spread around the 00:30:43.67900:30:43.689 whole country so so why wouldn't you use 00:30:46.19900:30:46.209 it you know and maybe in the future 00:30:48.38900:30:48.399 they'll convert it to something a little 00:30:50.42900:30:50.439 less fossil based and sure you know my 00:30:53.81900:30:53.829 company will be involved and not too but 00:30:55.76900:30:55.779 in the meantime CHP a CHP because it 00:30:59.84900:30:59.859 needs to run 24/7 and a can run 24/7 for 00:31:03.77900:31:03.789 maximum efficiency and for maximum 00:31:05.81900:31:05.829 output well if you've got a clean 00:31:07.97900:31:07.989 reliable supply of gas that that's key 00:31:11.39900:31:11.409 and unfortunately it's hard to do that 00:31:14.36900:31:14.379 with a lot of other fuels but when those 00:31:16.43900:31:16.449 fuels are available we always are 00:31:18.92900:31:18.939 available to convert CHP to run like 00:31:21.32900:31:21.339 that so in parts of the country where 00:31:22.82900:31:22.839 they don't have gas with a lot of LPG 00:31:24.98900:31:24.999 units so I think I'm in Carey 00:31:26.70000:31:26.710 as one area with a lot of installed you 00:31:29.19000:31:29.200 probably know more about it than I do 00:31:30.99000:31:31.000 but that allows it kind of a completely 00:31:33.99000:31:34.000 off the grid set up one other area 00:31:37.47000:31:37.480 noticed was that the the fuel input had 00:31:40.50000:31:40.510 decreased by 1.3 percent so that's that 00:31:42.57000:31:42.580 primary energy saving we talked about 00:31:44.46000:31:44.470 but the electricity output had increased 00:31:47.07000:31:47.080 so that to me says that we're doing 00:31:50.03900:31:50.049 something a bit better with our 00:31:50.94000:31:50.950 technology and CHP as a as America is 00:31:54.41900:31:54.429 becoming more efficient and that must be 00:31:57.48000:31:57.490 good for everybody 00:31:58.32000:31:58.330 you know so I'd recommend people to have 00:32:00.87000:32:00.880 a look at that it's very good also the 00:32:04.35000:32:04.360 76 percent efficiency has increased 82 00:32:07.88900:32:07.899 percent as well so the figures are going 00:32:10.04900:32:10.059 the right way the in the table of fuels 00:32:14.90900:32:14.919 by I read into it that biogas was the 00:32:19.01900:32:19.029 third in a number of capacity oil-based 00:32:24.09000:32:24.100 fuels at 7.5 megawatts was next under 00:32:28.74000:32:28.750 natural gas at 285 megawatts interesting 00:32:33.96000:32:33.970 the 160 megawatts of that his 00:32:36.02900:32:36.039 organization Lumina or Roussel in 00:32:37.98000:32:37.990 Limerick so you know it's that skews the 00:32:40.56000:32:40.570 table a little bit okay one thing that 00:32:45.29900:32:45.309 we always do talk about where that fuel 00:32:47.15900:32:47.169 is the higher heating value and the 00:32:48.84000:32:48.850 lower heating value where is hands again 00:32:51.63000:32:51.640 for everybody who knows about higher 00:32:52.91900:32:52.929 heating value and nor he's a value is 00:32:55.43000:32:55.440 everybody great and lower heating value 00:33:01.66900:33:01.679 so getting back to better thermodynamics 00:33:03.89900:33:03.909 as everybody remember doing this in 00:33:05.78900:33:05.799 college but what we're talking about 00:33:08.19000:33:08.200 here is when the vapor is not condensed 00:33:11.15900:33:11.169 to water and the latent heat of 00:33:12.63000:33:12.640 vaporization of water is not usable so 00:33:16.26000:33:16.270 it's that point in combustion when the 00:33:20.54900:33:20.559 gas is ignited and is transforming into 00:33:23.22000:33:23.230 vapor and exploding what amount of water 00:33:27.53900:33:27.549 is left yeah and some people use lower 00:33:30.63000:33:30.640 heating value well if you do that you're 00:33:33.60000:33:33.610 going to end up in the scenario where 00:33:34.83000:33:34.840 you may show efficiencies a greater than 00:33:38.86000:33:38.870 theoretically possible okay so we would 00:33:42.26000:33:42.270 watch over that it also called a net 00:33:44.60000:33:44.610 calorific value in lower calorific value 00:33:46.40000:33:46.410 so people might be more familiar with 00:33:47.63000:33:47.640 that the higher even value is is 00:33:50.93000:33:50.940 probably a better way of looking at it 00:33:53.12000:33:53.130 and because it cannot exceed 100% as 00:33:55.79000:33:55.800 well so this is the situation where you 00:33:57.71000:33:57.720 have maybe a boiler being expressed as a 00:34:01.97000:34:01.980 hundred and forty percent efficient well 00:34:03.53000:34:03.540 actually it's about 95 percent efficient 00:34:05.45000:34:05.460 if you look at it this way 00:34:07.24000:34:07.250 okay this and this assumes water is in 00:34:10.04000:34:10.050 the liquid state after combustion which 00:34:12.41000:34:12.420 which tends to happen 00:34:13.79000:34:13.800 okay I'm going back to the books again 00:34:15.98000:34:15.990 we're talking about the enthalpy change 00:34:18.23000:34:18.240 for the reaction assumes a common 00:34:20.24000:34:20.250 temperature for compounds before and 00:34:22.01000:34:22.020 after combustion and that makes sense 00:34:24.83000:34:24.840 when you think about it doesn't yeah so 00:34:28.55000:34:28.560 the thing I use to remember this for 00:34:30.86000:34:30.870 myself is the higher heating value gives 00:34:33.20000:34:33.210 a lower efficiency so it's a more 00:34:35.36000:34:35.370 realistic view so so what you might be 00:34:39.47000:34:39.480 saying so what well well actually makes 00:34:41.33000:34:41.340 it's quite a difference because if 00:34:43.49000:34:43.500 you're using the wrong values and 00:34:46.24000:34:46.250 somebody else has used the other value 00:34:49.61000:34:49.620 there could be an 11 percent difference 00:34:51.68000:34:51.690 in the predicted cost of your fuel and 00:34:54.94000:34:54.950 you're near that could add up to quite a 00:34:57.20000:34:57.210 lot okay so this is just a quick look at 00:35:05.42000:35:05.430 emissions in the UK I don't hear it 00:35:08.06000:35:08.070 mentioned too often in Ireland with 00:35:09.53000:35:09.540 relation to CHP so I may be pre-empting 00:35:12.86000:35:12.870 something that might be coming on the 00:35:14.48000:35:14.490 tracks but I thought I just put that in 00:35:16.43000:35:16.440 here as well since we're talking about 00:35:17.78000:35:17.790 fuel and at the products of our fuel 00:35:20.75000:35:20.760 afterwards in London for a long time now 00:35:23.06000:35:23.070 we've been governed by the sustainable 00:35:25.13000:35:25.140 design in construction documents coming 00:35:28.43000:35:28.440 from the Mayor of London and we used to 00:35:30.89000:35:30.900 finally call this the Baris plan and it 00:35:34.43000:35:34.440 was like the bar spikes painful and 00:35:37.63000:35:37.640 nobody really wanted to use it but it 00:35:40.94000:35:40.950 was there any way to help the greater 00:35:42.68000:35:42.690 good and in this they talked about using 00:35:45.46000:35:45.470 FCR technology that's selective 00:35:48.14000:35:48.150 catalytic reduction and that is a way of 00:35:52.49000:35:52.500 controlling emissions and and a lot of 00:35:55.01000:35:55.020 new I think it's like the audio three or 00:35:58.49000:35:58.500 something like that and you use ad blue 00:36:00.89000:36:00.900 to top up the system the scr in that so 00:36:03.26000:36:03.270 it cleans up the emissions the gas as 00:36:06.32000:36:06.330 it's evenly exhaust it's the same thing 00:36:08.81000:36:08.820 but on a more industrial scale 00:36:10.46000:36:10.470 and what we end up with really is 00:36:12.53000:36:12.540 instead of having a standard 00:36:14.80000:36:14.810 NOx level and this is measured at 5% o2 00:36:18.71000:36:18.720 which is very important figure and 00:36:20.83000:36:20.840 instead of it being 500 milligrams per 00:36:23.42000:36:23.430 normal meter cubed with an integrated 00:36:26.54000:36:26.550 catalyst it is at a standard of about 00:36:28.34000:36:28.350 250 with a low NOx catalyst which we can 00:36:32.96000:36:32.970 build into the CHP we can get it to 50 00:36:35.24000:36:35.250 milligrams but selective catalytic 00:36:37.13000:36:37.140 reduction will bring it down to almost 00:36:39.14000:36:39.150 nothing 00:36:40.22000:36:40.230 10 milligrams so it's a very very 00:36:44.24000:36:44.250 interesting system however it does have 00:36:47.42000:36:47.430 an additional capital cost and an 00:36:50.33000:36:50.340 ongoing operational cost and it's a it's 00:36:54.23000:36:54.240 a chemical reaction where AdBlue or urea 00:36:57.22000:36:57.230 removes the nasty particles and then you 00:37:01.52000:37:01.530 have to replenish that consumable so the 00:37:04.85000:37:04.860 reason I'm saying that is that it does 00:37:07.37000:37:07.380 have a lot of benefits in in the in the 00:37:10.79000:37:10.800 atmosphere however it's almost a bit of 00:37:13.67000:37:13.680 a sledgehammer approach that the Mayor 00:37:16.64000:37:16.650 of London has taken if there could be 00:37:18.65000:37:18.660 better ways of doing this okay so it's 00:37:21.71000:37:21.720 just something to watch out for and 00:37:23.00000:37:23.010 maybe some people have experience of 00:37:25.01000:37:25.020 this already but I haven't seen much of 00:37:27.86000:37:27.870 it myself in Ireland but it's it's 00:37:31.34000:37:31.350 predominant in London the London does 00:37:34.04000:37:34.050 have a pretty bad atmosphere so maybe 00:37:38.36000:37:38.370 that's the reason okay so now look at it 00:37:43.31000:37:43.320 in a different angle I'm gonna look at 00:37:44.69000:37:44.700 the CHP economics and this is really why 00:37:47.72000:37:47.730 my company has been in business for 35 00:37:49.97000:37:49.980 years and it's it's more to do with how 00:37:53.09000:37:53.100 CHP can have a real return on investment 00:37:55.88000:37:55.890 for a client and how that can be 00:37:58.58000:37:58.590 creative because we've talked about the 00:38:00.32000:38:00.330 energy costs and the carbon footprint 00:38:02.99000:38:03.000 savings but actually there's real return 00:38:05.09000:38:05.100 on 00:38:05.58000:38:05.590 investment here that we can have - we 00:38:09.51000:38:09.520 build up models and we we serve a site 00:38:12.33000:38:12.340 before CHP is brought there we will look 00:38:16.68000:38:16.690 into all the variables that will add up 00:38:20.49000:38:20.500 to a good site and identify any things 00:38:22.29000:38:22.300 that may or may not suit the main ones 00:38:24.60000:38:24.610 here our energy demand profile so you'd 00:38:26.28000:38:26.290 all be well aware of what that is 00:38:27.62000:38:27.630 looking at it on a thermal point of view 00:38:31.07000:38:31.080 weekly monthly data half hourly meter 00:38:34.11000:38:34.120 reading day there's gold that that's 00:38:35.88000:38:35.890 what we really want to see so then we 00:38:37.29000:38:37.300 can we kind of confidence in what we're 00:38:39.36000:38:39.370 looking at so it's all about the data 00:38:40.50000:38:40.510 with the man profiles so we do that for 00:38:42.75000:38:42.760 he do that for electricity and we may do 00:38:45.42000:38:45.430 it further things as well if it's 00:38:46.59000:38:46.600 trigeneration 00:38:47.40000:38:47.410 so we'll take that all in and plug it 00:38:49.68000:38:49.690 into our modeling system spark spread 00:38:52.17000:38:52.180 and I'm sure you all know what sparks 00:38:54.21000:38:54.220 part is but further people that may not 00:38:56.07000:38:56.080 spark spread is the difference between 00:38:57.57000:38:57.580 the cost of gas and the cost of 00:38:59.22000:38:59.230 electricity okay so if it's in this 00:39:02.28000:39:02.290 example we're going to do it's a 2.5 00:39:04.35000:39:04.360 cent for natural gas and let's say a 10 00:39:07.11000:39:07.120 cent for electricity so the specs right 00:39:09.63000:39:09.640 there is 4 to 1 or 7.5 differential and 00:39:14.64000:39:14.650 that's the value of CHP put gas in 00:39:17.84000:39:17.850 there's your value and you've 00:39:20.76000:39:20.770 electricity worth that amount oh that's 00:39:23.31000:39:23.320 what is here to be has been such a good 00:39:25.47000:39:25.480 business for us but we need to multiply 00:39:28.47000:39:28.480 that by a lot more variables as well so 00:39:30.51000:39:30.520 looking at the operation though is there 00:39:32.40000:39:32.410 we talk in general to say over 4,000 00:39:35.91000:39:35.920 overs per annum ever owning a CHP like 00:39:38.55000:39:38.560 that is where it starts to become 00:39:40.11000:39:40.120 cost-effective and that's when it gives 00:39:42.42000:39:42.430 a real return on investment you can run 00:39:45.24000:39:45.250 this here HP for anything less than that 00:39:46.56000:39:46.570 or anything greater than that but about 00:39:49.62000:39:49.630 $4,000 is is a kind of a good starting 00:39:52.41000:39:52.420 point if you're looking to make a return 00:39:53.73000:39:53.740 and these are the headline variables 00:39:57.75000:39:57.760 that we plug into our model and what I'm 00:39:59.64000:39:59.650 going to do now is just run through an 00:40:01.17000:40:01.180 example where we pick an engine we run 00:40:03.72000:40:03.730 it for an hour we see what it cost to 00:40:05.58000:40:05.590 run it I will see what's the value we 00:40:07.32000:40:07.330 get over on the other side ok so the 00:40:09.90000:40:09.910 engine we're picking here is the 230 00:40:12.03000:40:12.040 kilowatt electric bills here tree and as 00:40:14.01000:40:14.020 you know with C HP's we're always 00:40:16.41000:40:16.420 talking electrical when we want 00:40:17.94000:40:17.950 we named him so 2:30 is 230 kilowatts of 00:40:20.91000:40:20.920 electricity and here's a snapshot of the 00:40:23.06900:40:23.079 data sheet we get 357 kilowatts of 00:40:26.79000:40:26.800 thermal energy we could see the fuel 00:40:29.64000:40:29.650 input and we could see its net and gross 00:40:31.92000:40:31.930 values as well all right so we're going 00:40:34.29000:40:34.300 to use that information and plug it into 00:40:36.56900:40:36.579 our model so first of all we're going to 00:40:39.78000:40:39.790 look at the running costs so just to 00:40:41.60900:40:41.619 turn on the engine for one hour what's 00:40:43.31900:40:43.329 it gonna cost us okay 00:40:45.14000:40:45.150 well it's going to cost us the gaps in 00:40:47.76000:40:47.770 the first place so first 716 kilowatts 00:40:51.39000:40:51.400 at 2.5 cent per kilowatt it's about 18 00:40:54.99000:40:55.000 euro yeah and if we look at the own M 00:40:58.58900:40:58.599 here this is a this is a figure we work 00:41:01.23000:41:01.240 backwards to get so we looked at what M 00:41:03.81000:41:03.820 is price per annum R over a 5-year plan 00:41:06.35900:41:06.369 so we divided it by five years you know 00:41:09.48000:41:09.490 I broke it down per hour how to came out 00:41:11.94000:41:11.950 as 3 or an hour we can also put I could 00:41:15.12000:41:15.130 have put in there one year or an hour 00:41:16.46000:41:16.470 but that would be misleading so I picked 00:41:19.89000:41:19.900 3 as the more expensive operation of 00:41:22.58900:41:22.599 maintenance to give you guys a good 00:41:25.46000:41:25.470 ballpark figure okay we don't price per 00:41:28.44000:41:28.450 hour so 00:41:43.15000:41:43.160 so it's that the projector has just gone 00:41:49.40000:41:49.410 into a standby mode that's handy anybody 00:41:55.49000:41:55.500 any questions anybody know to fix a 00:41:59.42000:41:59.430 projector exactly 00:42:12.95000:42:12.960 that kind of price is three or an hour 00:42:17.90000:42:17.910 would be that kind of larger expense 00:42:21.56000:42:21.570 that would build in the major overhaul 00:42:24.32000:42:24.330 at sixty thousand dollars is where we 00:42:26.51000:42:26.520 would where we would say usually it 00:42:40.22000:42:40.230 depends on how its maintained yeah and 00:42:43.16000:42:43.170 that would be covered in that so that 00:42:44.69000:42:44.700 kind of price would cover all parts all 00:42:47.30000:42:47.310 labor and I know there would be levels 00:42:49.49000:42:49.500 of service that know will be agreed 00:42:56.29000:42:56.300 partly but not a full sinking fund it's 00:42:58.88000:42:58.890 not happy it's not having a separate 00:43:00.62000:43:00.630 account or something but all 00:43:01.88000:43:01.890 responsibility for availability would be 00:43:04.55000:43:04.560 on us yeah good question thank you 00:43:17.96000:43:17.970 they're the interesting thing about that 00:43:21.09000:43:21.100 is that there's no one answer I can give 00:43:22.62000:43:22.630 you because it all depends on how that 00:43:24.24000:43:24.250 and box was maintained so if the 00:43:27.99000:43:28.000 generator was well maintained and the 00:43:29.49000:43:29.500 pumps and everything and if you get to 00:43:31.47000:43:31.480 that time so you can imagine all the 00:43:33.00000:43:33.010 components are running running some of 00:43:34.74000:43:34.750 them will have a lifetime of two three 00:43:36.39000:43:36.400 years and they'll be replaced or if 00:43:38.76000:43:38.770 they're not they can have knock-on 00:43:40.29000:43:40.300 effects so it's the combination of the 00:43:43.05000:43:43.060 different technologies that are 00:43:45.30000:43:45.310 maintained you know but you could just 00:43:49.41000:43:49.420 have a situation where it's just new 00:43:50.94000:43:50.950 heads 00:44:04.08900:44:04.099 yes we would use the the software and we 00:44:08.31900:44:08.329 have 200 sensor points on our engines to 00:44:12.21900:44:12.229 give data to show what's happening live 00:44:14.88000:44:14.890 and that's that's visible to the to the 00:44:18.33900:44:18.349 client or consultant whoever is managing 00:44:20.89000:44:20.900 that and they're good questions because 00:44:25.53900:44:25.549 CHP operational maintenance is almost a 00:44:30.21900:44:30.229 hidden cost that some people don't know 00:44:33.09900:44:33.109 about until they see the CHP on their 00:44:35.79900:44:35.809 site and and it's a big problem because 00:44:39.00900:44:39.019 people think well gee that's very 00:44:40.66000:44:40.670 expensive it is very expensive 00:44:42.00900:44:42.019 maintenance if you if you multiply 3 00:44:44.49900:44:44.509 euro by hello if you multiply 3 year-old 00:44:49.83900:44:49.849 by $4,000 you see straightaway the scale 00:44:53.16000:44:53.170 this is not profit hearing this is 00:44:56.52900:44:56.539 actually replacement apparents getting 00:44:58.74900:44:58.759 people to say and came for people that 00:45:01.66000:45:01.670 are skilled in gas technology mechanical 00:45:04.23900:45:04.249 and electrical so it is about to be 00:45:08.82900:45:08.839 funny constantly because people look at 00:45:12.40000:45:12.410 this here to be like a boiler 00:45:23.28000:45:23.290 you could almost be painting the same 00:45:25.35900:45:25.369 again sorry about that 00:45:40.78000:45:40.790 projector decided to turn itself off 00:45:42.37000:45:42.380 that's handy thanks for saving me is it 00:45:47.41000:45:47.420 working okay my question was what 00:45:51.88000:45:51.890 percentage of the overall cost to the 00:45:54.33900:45:54.349 O&M makeup that's posted initially 00:45:59.44000:45:59.450 capital expenditure and you and your 00:46:01.05900:46:01.069 answer was could be the same so it could 00:46:03.04000:46:03.050 be 50/50 yeah it could be 50/50 thank 00:46:05.44000:46:05.450 you 00:46:05.71000:46:05.720 depending on the size of the engine and 00:46:07.42000:46:07.430 yep and and every engine if you want to 00:46:12.94000:46:12.950 think about it in an example are like 00:46:16.39000:46:16.400 cars some of the engines the maintenance 00:46:19.48000:46:19.490 would be pretty straightforward and not 00:46:21.09900:46:21.109 a great cost but some of the more 00:46:22.96000:46:22.970 complicated engines when they're 00:46:24.40000:46:24.410 turbocharged and kind of a lot more 00:46:26.81900:46:26.829 ancillary equipment necessary to run it 00:46:29.62000:46:29.630 that's when it starts to get more 00:46:31.45000:46:31.460 expensive okay I think we filled out 00:46:36.40000:46:36.410 there nicely didn't we thanks guys 00:46:39.00000:46:39.010 so 1790 per hour would be the cost of 00:46:45.30900:46:45.319 the fuel input the operational 00:46:48.70000:46:48.710 maintenance would be three euros let's 00:46:50.62000:46:50.630 use that and that give us a 00:46:52.24000:46:52.250 twenty-one-year-old just to turn on this 00:46:54.01000:46:54.020 engine just for one or so you're not 00:46:55.87000:46:55.880 going to turn it on for any good or any 00:46:57.49000:46:57.500 reason it needs to be adding real value 00:47:00.16000:47:00.170 to the site if we look at the savings 00:47:02.10900:47:02.119 here and the generation here of 229 00:47:05.47000:47:05.480 kilowatts of electricity at $0.10 per 00:47:07.96000:47:07.970 kilowatt this 23 euro will set and if we 00:47:13.63000:47:13.640 wanted to run a boiler on this site that 00:47:16.93000:47:16.940 was 80% efficient so I've given a lower 00:47:18.91000:47:18.920 figure here not to not to overrate 00:47:20.71000:47:20.720 things and that uses gas as well and 00:47:22.87000:47:22.880 that output was 357 kilowatts of thermal 00:47:25.83900:47:25.849 energy it would cost you around 11 euro 00:47:28.69000:47:28.700 or to run that boiler as well 00:47:30.69000:47:30.700 so the overly energy-saving of this one 00:47:34.26000:47:34.270 CHP on-site saving you buying 00:47:37.26000:47:37.270 electricity and said if you're running a 00:47:38.79000:47:38.800 boiler is about 34 euros okay so taking 00:47:42.72000:47:42.730 one from the other you could see 00:47:43.80000:47:43.810 straightaway there 00:47:44.70000:47:44.710 there's a 13 euro net saving and if we 00:47:48.36000:47:48.370 multiply that by seven thousand eight 00:47:49.98000:47:49.990 hundred eighty four we get one hundred 00:47:52.53000:47:52.540 and three thousand and I removed all of 00:47:55.47000:47:55.480 the Euro signs except on this slide I'm 00:47:57.54000:47:57.550 really annoyed with myself 00:47:58.71000:47:58.720 are the pound signs yes there would be 00:48:08.07000:48:08.080 so look at it now if we take away that 00:48:10.32000:48:10.330 11 euro it comes out of 23 so we 00:48:14.85000:48:14.860 wouldn't put it in in the first place 00:48:16.02000:48:16.030 the the the Euro or the yeah sorry yeah 00:48:22.47000:48:22.480 I absolutely agree with you 00:48:29.03000:48:29.040 you're better off playing in the the 00:48:30.96000:48:30.970 power yep the like CHP becomes a good 00:48:38.49000:48:38.500 investment when you use the heat it's 00:48:41.22000:48:41.230 just okay using the electricity when you 00:48:44.82000:48:44.830 add in the heat it's a real it's a real 00:48:46.86000:48:46.870 saver absolutely agree with you 00:49:21.88000:49:21.890 when you add every single day of the 00:49:28.61000:49:28.620 year yeah absolutely yep 00:50:07.70000:50:07.710 I take your point I think you're totally 00:50:09.50000:50:09.510 right I should have started this by 00:50:12.80000:50:12.810 saying this is a simple calculation if I 00:50:18.67000:50:18.680 know sir but no I take your point on the 00:50:22.01000:50:22.020 the the debate about 45,000 hours to 00:50:25.73000:50:25.740 60,000 that's purely dependent on the 00:50:28.22000:50:28.230 technology being used and who's 00:50:30.08000:50:30.090 maintaining it there are two big things 00:50:32.21000:50:32.220 that need to be looked at but definitely 00:50:35.51000:50:35.520 take your points there the the 7000 00:50:39.29000:50:39.300 hours just to let you know 7w a 4 is a 00:50:42.64000:50:42.650 365 days of the year 24 hours a day by 00:50:46.49000:50:46.500 90% so that takes out 10% of time for 00:50:50.00000:50:50.010 the O&M as well yeah so that does allow 00:50:53.87000:50:53.880 for that which is you know the OM really 00:50:56.15000:50:56.160 cost you cost you in cash the costume 00:50:58.22000:50:58.230 time as well the availability and that's 00:51:00.53000:51:00.540 what people don't realize over the 00:51:02.09000:51:02.100 lifetime 10% of its life it will be 00:51:04.49000:51:04.500 stopped and down for maintenance and 00:51:06.73000:51:06.740 people may query data why is it always 00:51:09.20000:51:09.210 down well it's not it's actually 00:51:10.99000:51:11.000 preventative maintenance 10% at a time 00:51:13.70000:51:13.710 as you know time moves fast but thank 00:51:17.00000:51:17.010 you and and actually my next few slides 00:51:20.90000:51:20.910 might might add to this as well because 00:51:23.78000:51:23.790 this is a very simple calculation we're 00:51:26.00000:51:26.010 doing here in a very simple payback 00:51:27.53000:51:27.540 this was a hospital in the UK where they 00:51:29.69000:51:29.700 already had a 230 kilowatt electrical 00:51:32.06000:51:32.070 we installed that was removed and a new 00:51:34.64000:51:34.650 one was put in so we know exactly what 00:51:36.65000:51:36.660 what was needed here the installation 00:51:39.41000:51:39.420 costs were very low you could see here 00:51:40.85000:51:40.860 one hundred and sixty five thousand so 00:51:42.92000:51:42.930 the payback in this for the NHS was 00:51:45.26000:51:45.270 fantastic and actually in today's world 00:51:48.38000:51:48.390 they're always looking for a payback 00:51:49.43000:51:49.440 over both three years and less so we 00:51:52.19000:51:52.200 were fighting all the time to keep that 00:51:54.11000:51:54.120 availability up I said there are ten 00:51:56.24000:51:56.250 percent of the time it's done well we're 00:51:58.07000:51:58.080 getting a push no from ninety two 00:52:00.05000:52:00.060 percent availability I'm greater than 00:52:01.91000:52:01.920 that so it's a constant battle between 00:52:04.03000:52:04.040 early preventative maintenance like you 00:52:07.49000:52:07.500 mentioned there earlier and identifying 00:52:09.59000:52:09.600 things before they happen and then 00:52:11.66000:52:11.670 making sure nothing catastrophic happens 00:52:13.64000:52:13.650 as well so that kind of 2.2 year payback 00:52:16.67000:52:16.680 is then that kind of perfect scenario in 00:52:18.89000:52:18.900 this simple calculation but we're really 00:52:21.08000:52:21.090 needs to be analyzed is early days and 00:52:24.02000:52:24.030 and speaking with your engineers tonight 00:52:26.72000:52:26.730 is a good way of illustrating that early 00:52:29.39000:52:29.400 design and early feedback into this 00:52:32.26000:52:32.270 sorry hmm so instead of that 2.2 years 00:52:40.31000:52:40.320 payback which is in the best case 00:52:42.41000:52:42.420 scenario we end up with something like 00:52:44.48000:52:44.490 at three point nine which is that red 00:52:48.56000:52:48.570 circle there and that's if some one of 00:52:51.53000:52:51.540 the variables changed so gas price gas 00:52:53.78000:52:53.790 price went up from two point five to 00:52:55.88000:52:55.890 four we've no control over that 00:52:57.62000:52:57.630 yeah that changes the economics trade 00:52:59.96000:52:59.970 away payback of six years refers to I 00:53:04.52000:53:04.530 think when somebody said what happens if 00:53:05.75000:53:05.760 we don't use the heat so if we only use 00:53:07.79000:53:07.800 50 percent to the heat here it pushes 00:53:11.00000:53:11.010 out to pay back straightaway almost 00:53:13.25000:53:13.260 doubles as you could say so the heat is 00:53:15.89000:53:15.900 so important that it needs to be used 00:53:17.66000:53:17.670 and then finally this probably ties into 00:53:20.33000:53:20.340 what you were saying the five thousand 00:53:22.16000:53:22.170 hours so instead of seven thousand eight 00:53:26.15000:53:26.160 hundred eighty-four 5585 is about 17 00:53:29.51000:53:29.520 hours a day and in the UK that's what we 00:53:31.82000:53:31.830 use it's to do with the day and night 00:53:35.00000:53:35.010 time tariffs I think that's that split 00:53:36.86000:53:36.870 for the 17 hours so this is more like 00:53:39.17000:53:39.180 that and this is actually this 5000 00:53:41.24000:53:41.250 hours is probably every other situation 00:53:44.21000:53:44.220 that isn't a 24 hour cyst 00:53:45.80000:53:45.810 so hospitals data centers and a few more 00:53:50.00000:53:50.010 24 hours a day everything else starts at 00:53:53.12000:53:53.130 this kind of point air about 5,000 hours 00:53:55.54000:53:55.550 so so you need to be careful at the 00:54:00.23000:54:00.240 feasibility stage that's the point here 00:54:02.30000:54:02.310 really so it is relatively simple to get 00:54:06.23000:54:06.240 your head around this but they get into 00:54:07.73000:54:07.740 the fine detail is a bit more prolonged 00:54:12.04000:54:12.050 okay Who am I do if I tell you actually 00:54:25.03000:54:25.040 so um just can do a little bit about low 00:54:28.55000:54:28.560 profile it so it's just how how do we 00:54:30.65000:54:30.660 sell user CAHPS what's the kind of best 00:54:32.60000:54:32.610 way to look at it I sit on this is a 00:54:36.08000:54:36.090 district 18 CHP committee and there's 00:54:38.30000:54:38.310 very loose guidelines on this so what 00:54:41.39000:54:41.400 we've done on this satisfies is just to 00:54:43.16000:54:43.170 give an example of what we see in 00:54:44.33000:54:44.340 America and how people are doing it and 00:54:47.41000:54:47.420 what we do and we we call this method 00:54:50.45000:54:50.460 one here is based little thermal 00:54:54.16000:54:54.170 straightforward isn't it 00:54:56.41000:54:56.420 we size this here to be small and nimble 00:54:59.68000:54:59.690 so it satisfies the base load all year 00:55:02.51000:55:02.520 long it keeps it running and all the 00:55:05.99000:55:06.000 heat is used on site when we have P key 00:55:10.94000:55:10.950 times of years you know the the ones 00:55:12.86000:55:12.870 like no the boilers kick in and boilers 00:55:17.27000:55:17.280 are designed to to modulator and come on 00:55:19.49000:55:19.500 and off so it's the best way to use them 00:55:21.44000:55:21.450 so on a on a monthly view this is how we 00:55:24.74000:55:24.750 would hope we would say is the CHP 00:55:27.14000:55:27.150 pretty straightforward I'm sure you 00:55:29.03000:55:29.040 understand um 00:55:31.42000:55:31.430 method two it's that time where there 00:55:36.23000:55:36.240 might be a little bit of a conflict 00:55:37.52000:55:37.530 between maybe planning applications and 00:55:40.97000:55:40.980 Part L driving carbon and carbon savings 00:55:44.36000:55:44.370 on the site so people want the larger 00:55:46.28000:55:46.290 CHP with a larger thermal output so 00:55:48.83000:55:48.840 instead of it being risk averse and at 00:55:51.89000:55:51.900 method 1 here people tend to start 00:55:53.81000:55:53.820 design in a larger CHP to to maximize 00:55:56.87000:55:56.880 the answer 00:55:58.13000:55:58.140 value which is understandable but the 00:56:01.09900:56:01.109 problem occurs then in the summer time 00:56:02.72000:56:02.730 when when all the heat is not utilized 00:56:05.76900:56:05.779 so some people if this was on a daily 00:56:10.43000:56:10.440 basis you could use a thermistor and a 00:56:12.74000:56:12.750 thermistor is always a good idea with 00:56:14.35900:56:14.369 the CHP but on a monthly basis this 00:56:18.10900:56:18.119 causes problems some answers to this are 00:56:20.90000:56:20.910 to use a heat trim or heat rejection 00:56:22.78900:56:22.799 radiators and there is an Essie I would 00:56:28.64000:56:28.650 show that you can utilize that for a 00:56:30.65000:56:30.660 portion of the year as long as the rest 00:56:32.80900:56:32.819 of the year was still with him is that 00:56:35.15000:56:35.160 seventy seventy-five percent so this 00:56:38.21000:56:38.220 shaded area was no greater than 25% of 00:56:40.78900:56:40.799 the total and it still qualifies for 00:56:43.75000:56:43.760 high-efficiency CHP but ideally you know 00:56:47.24000:56:47.250 you don't want that so so this is this 00:56:50.35900:56:50.369 is the hard design time when people need 00:56:51.95000:56:51.960 to pick a point between those two and be 00:56:54.52900:56:54.539 be happy but on your site but also the 00:56:56.93000:56:56.940 client has something to say about that 00:56:58.16000:56:58.170 to be learnt there because they may want 00:57:00.55900:57:00.569 valuable electricity and if you can 00:57:03.28900:57:03.299 imagine another chart here they might 00:57:05.99000:57:06.000 want that electricity on site and they 00:57:07.64000:57:07.650 might be willing to dump heat and that's 00:57:10.19000:57:10.200 a conversation that's a commercial 00:57:11.48000:57:11.490 conversation that needs to be had okay 00:57:14.53900:57:14.549 so that's made it to thermal and now 00:57:16.24900:57:16.259 we're going to look at electrical okay 00:57:18.89000:57:18.900 and sorry one more thermal is where we 00:57:22.70000:57:22.710 see modulation happening and people talk 00:57:26.63000:57:26.640 about thermal modulation 00:57:28.03900:57:28.049 I'm mechanical I can't of thought 00:57:31.06900:57:31.079 modulation was more of an electrical 00:57:32.80900:57:32.819 situation where you have instant 00:57:34.49000:57:34.500 modulation probably with a resistor you 00:57:37.00900:57:37.019 know so what we see here is people 00:57:39.65000:57:39.660 referring to low tracking of the thermal 00:57:41.99000:57:42.000 Lord and and actually what's really 00:57:43.70000:57:43.710 happening here and that heat is going 00:57:46.19000:57:46.200 into a thermistor usually or being 00:57:48.17000:57:48.180 dissipated some other way and the CHP 00:57:50.45000:57:50.460 will ramp down it's an engine and all 00:57:52.27900:57:52.289 engines can can modulate in a certain 00:57:54.95000:57:54.960 fashion but he does not instantly 00:57:56.93000:57:56.940 evaporate it's still in the system it's 00:57:59.24000:57:59.250 still in the engine and if it doesn't 00:58:00.79900:58:00.809 get away that could cause problems so 00:58:03.82900:58:03.839 this is a kind of a situation we 00:58:05.50900:58:05.519 wouldn't really you know promote because 00:58:09.97000:58:09.980 we 00:58:11.06900:58:11.079 can have this in her back pocket and if 00:58:12.66000:58:12.670 we're going to design a smaller CHP at a 00:58:15.90000:58:15.910 lower capital cost and let's say this 00:58:19.14000:58:19.150 year there was even less thermal 00:58:21.23900:58:21.249 requirement well then the CHP can 00:58:23.27900:58:23.289 modulate it down here so we keep that as 00:58:25.22900:58:25.239 a back-up plan 00:58:26.02900:58:26.039 yeah because if we end up with the CHP 00:58:29.00900:58:29.019 here and and if it cuts out what does he 00:58:32.67000:58:32.680 H people have to cool down before it can 00:58:34.79900:58:34.809 come back on again and that's where 00:58:36.74900:58:36.759 people have fallen into a trap if they 00:58:38.27900:58:38.289 if they expect the CHP to the map like a 00:58:41.19000:58:41.200 boiler would okay 00:59:00.97000:59:00.980 well they see the summers you've got 00:59:04.12000:59:04.130 small heating oil pack from airplanes in 00:59:08.30000:59:08.310 the mornings 00:59:15.71000:59:15.720 and thermally it's well electrically 00:59:20.24900:59:20.259 it's a it's 50% it will modulate 00:59:22.62000:59:22.630 electrically 50% but for every 10 00:59:27.07900:59:27.089 percent there it equates to about one 00:59:29.73000:59:29.740 degree Celsius in your actual your your 00:59:32.57900:59:32.589 life temperatures so if you think about 00:59:35.48900:59:35.499 that that's only five degrees you've got 00:59:37.49900:59:37.509 the play of it on a phone returned 00:59:38.70000:59:38.710 before the engine starts to not be able 00:59:42.59900:59:42.609 to deal with the heat that it is feeding 00:59:45.42000:59:45.430 back from the site I then tried to feed 00:59:48.29900:59:48.309 it out yeah so it is a it is a funny one 00:59:53.67000:59:53.680 because if we're talking about 00:59:55.34900:59:55.359 electrically modulation is instantaneous 00:59:58.31900:59:58.329 but thermally you've got this heat like 01:00:00.08901:00:00.099 this build up that needs to be 01:00:01.44001:00:01.450 dissipated you know if you've got a huge 01:00:05.09901:00:05.109 thermistor and if you've done the 01:00:07.01901:00:07.029 calculations right or if you've got a 01:00:08.27901:00:08.289 huge heat network there's a big place to 01:00:11.73001:00:11.740 dump heat 01:00:19.80001:00:19.810 yes so this this is the trap that that 01:00:31.42001:00:31.430 we see in UK all the time and to be to 01:00:34.48001:00:34.490 be risk averse you're admitted one to be 01:00:39.63001:00:39.640 zero carbon and and you know taking all 01:00:42.70001:00:42.710 the boxes you're admitted to and that's 01:00:45.13001:00:45.140 what a problem happens and it's it's 01:00:48.16001:00:48.170 it's it's a kind of - catch-22 really 01:00:51.91001:00:51.920 isn't it because a lot of time these 01:00:55.11001:00:55.120 calculations are done a planning stages 01:00:57.25001:00:57.260 for planning permission and there's no 01:00:59.92001:00:59.930 full mechanical or electrical designed 01:01:01.66001:01:01.670 on yet so how is an early stage 01:01:05.59001:01:05.600 feasibility going to know what the full 01:01:07.87001:01:07.880 daily breakdown is going to be like you 01:01:10.60001:01:10.610 know in detail oh yeah absolutely 01:01:34.89001:01:34.900 absolutely 01:01:40.20001:01:40.210 there is those really those really up in 01:01:47.65001:01:47.660 the information out there from all 01:01:50.44001:01:50.450 associations that but people haven't 01:01:52.87001:01:52.880 gone into the detail to publish that you 01:01:55.24001:01:55.250 know you know there's that a.m. 12 from 01:01:58.18001:01:58.190 sibs II am 11 sorry from Sydney and 01:02:01.26001:02:01.270 that's a good read but it doesn't it 01:02:03.82001:02:03.830 doesn't get into that detail enough for 01:02:05.92001:02:05.930 me and and what you're saying is dead 01:02:07.78001:02:07.790 right you know yeah I'm gonna go on to 01:02:12.46001:02:12.470 the kind of to the miniscule timing as 01:02:16.12001:02:16.130 well and now to look at the electrical 01:02:19.24001:02:19.250 side of things again a base load is 01:02:23.17001:02:23.180 where we want to be everything in an 01:02:25.81001:02:25.820 orange here is what the so requires 01:02:29.53901:02:29.549 on site and the blue here is bought in 01:02:32.12001:02:32.130 from the grid so the CHP is a flat line 01:02:34.00901:02:34.019 output again and everything will be 01:02:35.92901:02:35.939 consumed again on an annual basis okay 01:02:40.48901:02:40.499 and that's what you want to have you 01:02:41.65901:02:41.669 want to have a CHP that feeds your size 01:02:44.05901:02:44.069 and it's not really there to do anything 01:02:46.45901:02:46.469 else 01:02:47.04901:02:47.059 however when things are oversized the 01:02:51.28901:02:51.299 charity is flipped 01:02:52.21901:02:52.229 CHP output is up here and this is what 01:02:56.80901:02:56.819 the site is using and everything blue is 01:02:59.64901:02:59.659 referred to as exporting I look to the 01:03:04.33901:03:04.349 selu report there and there's only 13 01:03:06.62001:03:06.630 sites in Ireland exporting at the moment 01:03:09.46901:03:09.479 and I think you know if your site is 01:03:11.17901:03:11.189 exporting because you set up an 01:03:12.97901:03:12.989 agreement you know I'm living in the UK 01:03:15.79901:03:15.809 and on and all about export agreements 01:03:17.74901:03:17.759 with all this breaks a talk you know 01:03:20.02901:03:20.039 and they're not easy to set up so if 01:03:23.08901:03:23.099 people think that they're going to 01:03:24.43901:03:24.449 export electricity I think they need to 01:03:27.16901:03:27.179 check it again because this side refer 01:03:29.41901:03:29.429 to more spilling just spilling onto the 01:03:31.54901:03:31.559 grid and actually you need to get the 01:03:33.76901:03:33.779 district network operator ESB I assume 01:03:36.67901:03:36.689 at the CERN often at and allow you to 01:03:38.80901:03:38.819 spill onto the grid maybe people are 01:03:40.81901:03:40.829 confusing that with setting up an export 01:03:42.70901:03:42.719 agreement there are two very different 01:03:44.71901:03:44.729 things there so you always want to use 01:03:47.05901:03:47.069 all the electricity on site and you're 01:03:49.18901:03:49.199 going to use that let's say it's $0.10 01:03:51.94901:03:51.959 worked on site I'm sure it's a lot more 01:03:54.73901:03:54.749 than that actually but you want to use 01:03:56.87001:03:56.880 that on your site all day and all night 01:03:58.59901:03:58.609 so now that you know everything okay 01:04:02.23901:04:02.249 we're gonna go into the detail and you 01:04:04.03901:04:04.049 have to be quiet no this time don't 01:04:06.16901:04:06.179 spoil it for the rest of them the devil 01:04:10.87901:04:10.889 is in the detail here so on a daily 01:04:12.37901:04:12.389 basis okay this is a nursing home okay 01:04:16.06901:04:16.079 and we've got the electrical demand here 01:04:18.64901:04:18.659 on the left and the thermal demand here 01:04:20.23901:04:20.249 you could see there everybody's asleep 01:04:22.03901:04:22.049 here until about 7:00 a.m. big spike 01:04:24.28901:04:24.299 here big spike in the evening 01:04:25.81901:04:25.829 I think that's TV time there are cups of 01:04:28.99901:04:29.009 teas and Matlock is on you know and then 01:04:31.60901:04:31.619 in the end the electrical side of things 01:04:33.49901:04:33.509 it's the same year 7:00 a.m. you can see 01:04:35.98901:04:35.999 these spikes so my question to you guys 01:04:37.96901:04:37.979 is if we can put in the CHP here 01:04:42.26001:04:42.270 and if it does everything that the CHP 01:04:44.27001:04:44.280 should what size of CHP should we put in 01:04:47.11001:04:47.120 so to make it a bit easier and because 01:04:49.91001:04:49.920 I've got four minutes left I've added 01:04:51.71001:04:51.720 these lines as well to sure 01:04:53.93001:04:53.940 what kind of a so DC HP's you could put 01:04:55.85001:04:55.860 in here so I don't know how we're gonna 01:04:59.36001:04:59.370 get you all you've been all so talkative 01:05:00.97001:05:00.980 don't show it all at once you know but 01:05:03.62001:05:03.630 does anybody want to show an electrical 01:05:05.39001:05:05.400 number here that would pan across and I 01:05:07.76001:05:07.770 remember you know a 25 kilowatt CHP here 01:05:11.06001:05:11.070 is gonna pull out about you know over 40 01:05:14.03001:05:14.040 kilowatts of heat so who's gonna be 01:05:18.80001:05:18.810 brave okay that's okay 01:05:24.26001:05:24.270 it gives time though for people to 01:05:25.82001:05:25.830 digest all the information and to 01:05:28.00001:05:28.010 surprise me with your knowledge good man 01:05:35.90001:05:35.910 25 down here okay we've got Annie you're 01:05:42.86001:05:42.870 going for ten very risk-averse Tony are 01:05:44.78001:05:44.790 10 he's 35 okay 01:05:49.78001:05:49.790 any higher any higher bits I like this 01:05:55.25001:05:55.260 we're getting maybe up to 50 or Sam 01:05:57.77001:05:57.780 maybe that's the way if we had a tomato 01:06:04.70001:06:04.710 growing greenhouses out the back as well 01:06:06.65001:06:06.660 we could go here to couldn't really you 01:06:08.12001:06:08.130 know good point yeah if we were sending 01:06:13.55001:06:13.560 back to the grid to you know if this if 01:06:16.34001:06:16.350 these guys had a kind of a capacity 01:06:18.50001:06:18.510 market agreement pick up a tent in the 01:06:20.69001:06:20.700 wanton you know so doesn't there's a lot 01:06:22.85001:06:22.860 of other stuff here to think about yeah 01:06:30.46001:06:30.470 okay well I did have a go at one time 01:06:34.06001:06:34.070 and I showed him this and he said you 01:06:37.13001:06:37.140 know ninety all the way and he said I 01:06:39.59001:06:39.600 don't care I just want to listen 01:06:41.09001:06:41.100 electricity he's costing me a fortune I 01:06:42.92001:06:42.930 just want to you know get the 01:06:44.35901:06:44.369 electricity paid for right and he 01:06:46.07001:06:46.080 Dumpty's 01:06:46.58001:06:46.590 yeah and you know what client is the 01:06:49.55001:06:49.560 client you know but the special price 01:06:54.08001:06:54.090 goes through the man here on the right 01:06:55.81001:06:55.820 for the 35 so it's quite a sensible 01:07:05.39001:07:05.400 approach here and and on a daily basis 01:07:07.64001:07:07.650 I'd like to think of these white 01:07:09.26001:07:09.270 inverted triangles here is where the 01:07:10.82001:07:10.830 thermistor would be filling up and this 01:07:12.89001:07:12.900 this block here if we kick in the CHP it 01:07:15.41001:07:15.420 at 5:00 a.m. it started to help the site 01:07:18.76001:07:18.770 Jesus excuse me I'm not touching it and 01:07:27.79001:07:27.800 so the thermistor is essential on a site 01:07:30.98001:07:30.990 like this electricity use all day and 01:07:33.17001:07:33.180 all night 01:07:33.71001:07:33.720 but also this is not a big capital cost 01:07:36.56001:07:36.570 for that nursing home and that's 01:07:39.29001:07:39.300 important too we got to think about it 01:07:40.60901:07:40.619 as a lifetime cost yeah and what we're 01:07:44.75001:07:44.760 trying to do really in general is reduce 01:07:46.60901:07:46.619 utility costs right and you know you 01:07:49.84901:07:49.859 guys know these principles from good 01:07:51.44001:07:51.450 engineering practice anything we could 01:07:53.84001:07:53.850 do and say to reduce the even further we 01:07:55.43001:07:55.440 do that first then we make things more 01:07:57.83001:07:57.840 efficient in the plant 01:07:59.74001:07:59.750 okay so proper audits are the way to go 01:08:02.42001:08:02.430 forward and then at the end of all that 01:08:04.49001:08:04.500 the CHP might be an idea well we don't 01:08:08.30001:08:08.310 want to be people putting in a CHP of 01:08:10.16001:08:10.170 this size in that kind of you know hope 01:08:14.21001:08:14.220 that we're a silver bullet and solving 01:08:16.97001:08:16.980 all the energy efficiency issues you 01:08:19.07001:08:19.080 know 01:08:19.34001:08:19.350 CHP needs to be installed in the right 01:08:21.53001:08:21.540 situation at the right time and knowing 01:08:25.76001:08:25.770 that everything else has been done so 01:08:27.53001:08:27.540 that you know lighting upgrades have 01:08:30.05001:08:30.060 been done so that the electricity Lord 01:08:31.64001:08:31.650 it isn't demolished two years into a 01:08:34.09901:08:34.109 10-year agreement you know and these 01:08:36.65001:08:36.660 things have happened in the past and 01:08:37.99901:08:38.009 that's why CHP sometimes had been 01:08:40.01001:08:40.020 people looked at it unusually but it for 01:08:42.07901:08:42.089 me it's a matter of Education and what 01:08:43.88001:08:43.890 you guys are ahead of the curve or not 01:08:46.69001:08:46.700 my last points here really are about 01:08:49.59901:08:49.609 metering and getting good data it's key 01:08:52.49001:08:52.500 and it's key this is all done at early 01:08:54.32001:08:54.330 feasibility stages yeah we need to know 01:08:56.99001:08:57.000 what we're doing really early before we 01:08:59.48001:08:59.490 you know do anything it's it's it's so 01:09:02.30001:09:02.310 important because when contracts are out 01:09:05.26901:09:05.279 there it's too late when planning 01:09:07.09901:09:07.109 permission is done it's too late I think 01:09:12.34901:09:12.359 that's about it take just a bit of time 01:09:16.21001:09:16.220 so if anybody has any questions I can 01:09:19.46001:09:19.470 take questions now and I'll be around 01:09:28.55001:09:28.560 the corner later as well the smallest 01:09:39.71001:09:39.720 unit you have there I think was four 01:09:42.07901:09:42.089 kilowatts electrical what typically 01:09:44.21001:09:44.220 would that be what sort of the size 01:09:45.62001:09:45.630 would that be the smallest one we 01:09:47.80901:09:47.819 actually have is 2.3 kilowatt electrical 01:09:49.88001:09:49.890 and you mean physically yeah well what I 01:09:52.84901:09:52.859 mean what sort of an installation is it 01:09:54.50001:09:54.510 sort of domestic is it it's kind of a 01:09:56.84001:09:56.850 commercial kind of so it it's a it's a 01:10:00.56001:10:00.570 product designed for the German market 01:10:02.47001:10:02.480 where they have much more incentives on 01:10:05.03001:10:05.040 CHP so they actually use it domestically 01:10:07.16001:10:07.170 but but in the UK and Ireland it would 01:10:10.07001:10:10.080 be a bit too much for domestic you know 01:10:12.35001:10:12.360 that's a I think it's two point three 01:10:14.51001:10:14.520 kilowatt with a sums like five thermal 01:10:18.47001:10:18.480 output then you know but yeah it's quite 01:10:21.98001:10:21.990 a interesting piece of kit and it's 01:10:23.54001:10:23.550 probably just a little bit bigger than 01:10:25.43001:10:25.440 this print here you know 01:10:32.91001:10:32.920 all right okay so Robert says for a 01:10:35.73001:10:35.740 large petrol station our kind of 01:10:37.59001:10:37.600 commercial thing like that yeah yep is 01:10:47.73001:10:47.740 there any other questions Thanks so I'll 01:11:04.02001:11:04.030 efficiently feel that the CHP can be 01:11:06.15001:11:06.160 implemented in the countries where just 01:11:08.37001:11:08.380 Walmart 01:11:10.82001:11:10.830 probably yeah 01:11:12.48001:11:12.490 as most of the heating which is 01:11:13.92001:11:13.930 generated from the CHP couldn't be used 01:11:16.08001:11:16.090 for heating because they don't need the 01:11:17.46001:11:17.470 heating you should they wouldn't have 01:11:18.63001:11:18.640 the heating issue yeah so where the 01:11:21.15001:11:21.160 Texas heat can be used because that's 01:11:23.46001:11:23.470 where because of the excess dye usage of 01:11:25.71001:11:25.720 the heat was the making the CHP more 01:11:28.05001:11:28.060 efficient yes 01:11:29.19001:11:29.200 so if that is not used in the warmer 01:11:31.14001:11:31.150 conditions how do you think that it 01:11:33.51001:11:33.520 could be efficient in though we have 01:11:36.48001:11:36.490 installations of Troy generation okay 01:11:39.39001:11:39.400 where we would couple it with absorption 01:11:41.61001:11:41.620 chilling technology so then all of that 01:11:44.43001:11:44.440 low temperature of water can be turned 01:11:46.32001:11:46.330 into cooling but it's at about 6 degrees 01:11:48.99001:11:49.000 I think that might go as low as 4 01:11:50.79001:11:50.800 degrees maybe yeah 4 degrees so it's not 01:11:54.23001:11:54.240 don't to the lowest temperatures but but 01:11:56.85001:11:56.860 4 degree so so we do see that but also 01:11:59.67001:11:59.680 it depends on the the big thing with 01:12:01.26001:12:01.270 different countries is the spark gap so 01:12:03.66001:12:03.670 it's that cost of natural gas so the 01:12:05.67001:12:05.680 lower the cost of natural gas and the 01:12:07.26001:12:07.270 higher the electricity the more valuable 01:12:09.18001:12:09.190 it is and a good example of that is 01:12:11.16001:12:11.170 America at the moment so we opened up a 01:12:12.78001:12:12.790 new it's gone again we opened up a new 01:12:19.76001:12:19.770 factory and offices in America because 01:12:22.08001:12:22.090 their spare cap was 8 to 1 so in Ireland 01:12:26.16001:12:26.170 and the UK it's about 5 to 1 and that's 01:12:27.99001:12:28.000 really good for every one unit in your 01:12:31.28001:12:31.290 quadruple in that you know so it's a 01:12:36.30001:12:36.310 spare cap you know and and so natural 01:12:39.90001:12:39.910 gas if the natural gas is plentiful and 01:12:41.85001:12:41.860 and it's a secure supplier are the big 01:12:43.98001:12:43.990 things but yeah well you 01:12:45.73001:12:45.740 use the low temperature water for you 01:12:48.28001:12:48.290 know showers and for hot water 01:12:50.35001:12:50.360 applications but but not for heating 01:12:52.78001:12:52.790 that is what you're saying really yeah 01:12:54.07001:12:54.080 okay so actually like as you said it can 01:12:58.66001:12:58.670 be used very much in the commercial area 01:13:00.61001:13:00.620 so it is not very feasible for the 01:13:03.88001:13:03.890 domestic purpose right currently 01:13:06.07001:13:06.080 domestic is a challenging market for CHP 01:13:08.44001:13:08.450 you're right yeah because I know like 01:13:11.77001:13:11.780 every people stay at home so I think if 01:13:14.08001:13:14.090 he go into the homes implementing discs 01:13:16.24001:13:16.250 and the amount of efficiency could be 01:13:18.40001:13:18.410 greater than a commercial one right yes 01:13:22.08001:13:22.090 yeah we domestic so small-scale domestic 01:13:27.82001:13:27.830 CHP is probably a very very hard matter 01:13:30.63001:13:30.640 large-scale district heating on the 01:13:33.07001:13:33.080 other hand where electricity can be 01:13:35.08001:13:35.090 utilized or exported happens in London 01:13:37.60001:13:37.610 and places where you've got maybe a 2 01:13:39.64001:13:39.650 megawatt CHP exporting its electricity 01:13:42.07001:13:42.080 to the grid making a valuable return and 01:13:45.19001:13:45.200 then the district heating loop fed by 01:13:47.89001:13:47.900 the CHP so it becomes a valuable ESCO 01:13:51.67001:13:51.680 then but but on a small scale it doesn't 01:13:56.47001:13:56.480 really pan out that well you know so 01:13:58.72001:13:58.730 when you are saying this I just got a 01:13:59.98001:13:59.990 small idea so like most of the people 01:14:02.65001:14:02.660 drive the cars to their home so if it is 01:14:04.96001:14:04.970 a long driven so they can use the car 01:14:06.67001:14:06.680 engine because it has it it generates 01:14:08.65001:14:08.660 heats as were right so that heat can be 01:14:11.05001:14:11.060 implemented can be used in eating the 01:14:13.09001:14:13.100 home as well and that can be used a 01:14:14.62001:14:14.630 little way off as a domestic case right 01:14:16.92001:14:16.930 if you say so but I think your you need 01:14:22.03001:14:22.040 to talk to mr. Tesla and a few 01:14:24.40001:14:24.410 mechanical engineers as well maybe 01:14:25.84001:14:25.850 there's somebody here tonight with that 01:14:27.07001:14:27.080 will pick up on that one with you you 01:14:28.90001:14:28.910 know but I I don't have any experience 01:14:30.73001:14:30.740 of that okay thank you Cheers thank you 01:14:33.28001:14:33.290 just one of the issues in large-scale 01:14:35.56001:14:35.570 manufacturing where you've got a 01:14:37.33001:14:37.340 constant process load like steam 01:14:39.33001:14:39.340 absolutely food what if dryers then CHP 01:14:42.97001:14:42.980 as well would be very beneficial because 01:14:44.68001:14:44.690 you would have constant heating load and 01:14:47.32001:14:47.330 the constant electricity vote yeah 01:14:49.92001:14:49.930 manufacturing 24/7 01:14:51.76001:14:51.770 distilleries food and drink beverage 01:14:53.83001:14:53.840 that kind of thing is is where we see a 01:14:55.66001:14:55.670 lot of us here to be on a lot of these 01:14:57.49001:14:57.500 sites already exist 01:14:59.27001:14:59.280 existed since they started up because 01:15:01.02901:15:01.039 engineers like yourselves probably 01:15:03.10901:15:03.119 worked there you know so so yeah thanks 01:15:08.83901:15:08.849 for coming along everybody called 01:15:10.85001:15:10.860 nitinol but uh it's nice to meet you all 01:15:13.06901:15:13.079 and keep a touch 01:15:14.60001:15:14.610 I've left carrots at the back grab one I 01:15:17.47901:15:17.489 do stuff on LinkedIn and yep questions 01:15:20.77901:15:20.789 are welcome Cheers okay thank you very 01:15:24.20001:15:24.210 much thank you to John and thank you to 01:15:25.54901:15:25.559 Paul 01:15:26.15001:15:26.160 [Applause]
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