CHP and Alternative Fuels

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Language: en

00:00:05.750
hello everybody and thank you for coming
00:00:07.560 00:00:07.570 my name is Ken Goodman I'm on the
00:00:10.480 00:00:10.490 committee of the sabzi
00:00:11.650 00:00:11.660 ASHRAE group which is a group that was
00:00:13.089 00:00:13.099 set up to try and bring the information
00:00:15.369 00:00:15.379 of sabzi and Nashua together and
00:00:18.000 00:00:18.010 normally sabzi actually have a number of
00:00:20.529 00:00:20.539 events every year they're streamed
00:00:23.230 00:00:23.240 online to members subsea org is the
00:00:26.890 00:00:26.900 website all of the talks will be put up
00:00:28.689 00:00:28.699 there afterwards so if you ever wanted
00:00:30.970 00:00:30.980 to look at what they do is a wide range
00:00:33.280 00:00:33.290 of topics this year and last year we had
00:00:37.240 00:00:37.250 a subsea topic here in Ireland trying to
00:00:41.410 00:00:41.420 bring subsea trade-offs more to the
00:00:43.840 00:00:43.850 Ireland and to the Irish market so this
00:00:46.390 00:00:46.400 year we got John and Paul to talk about
00:00:49.030 00:00:49.040 CHP and alternative fuels we were
00:00:53.050 00:00:53.060 looking at maybe expanding it a bit more
00:00:54.610 00:00:54.620 so I think John slice you cover quite a
00:00:56.800 00:00:56.810 lot in to do with CHP Paul is going to
00:01:01.540 00:01:01.550 talk briefly 10-15 minutes on CHP in
00:01:06.310 00:01:06.320 Ireland what's available from the sei
00:01:08.410 00:01:08.420 and what angle the SI I have on CHP CHP
00:01:13.060 00:01:13.070 I think and Paul you can correct me if
00:01:14.410 00:01:14.420 I'm wrong
00:01:15.040 00:01:15.050 more than likely I am CHP and Ireland
00:01:18.390 00:01:18.400 hasn't had the optic that I think we
00:01:21.160 00:01:21.170 could here have in Ireland specifically
00:01:23.740 00:01:23.750 with the pharmaceutical and the larger
00:01:25.780 00:01:25.790 industrial clients around the country
00:01:28.080 00:01:28.090 it's a great technology I've seen it
00:01:30.280 00:01:30.290 working specifically if you have a
00:01:32.680 00:01:32.690 constant heating load and you get free
00:01:36.219 00:01:36.229 electricity but I'll let these guys talk
00:01:38.770 00:01:38.780 about it I'm not by any means an expert
00:01:40.420 00:01:40.430 in us so without further ado I introduce
00:01:42.640 00:01:42.650 Paul Martin so Paul is the sei program
00:01:47.080 00:01:47.090 manager and he's also the city Ireland
00:01:49.210 00:01:49.220 chair thank you how you doing thank you
00:01:54.850 00:01:54.860 Ken for having us here today
00:01:56.140 00:01:56.150 yeah I'm from SCA I use technical
00:01:59.140 00:01:59.150 standards development manager program
00:02:00.910 00:02:00.920 manager not managing yet and I am
00:02:03.940 00:02:03.950 currently sabzi Ireland chairperson so
00:02:06.719 00:02:06.729 Ken asked if I could get some people to
00:02:09.820 00:02:09.830 talk from SCA I and all of those three
00:02:12.309 00:02:12.319 people can't make it so I'm gonna try
00:02:14.140 00:02:14.150 and combine my talk the three people on
00:02:16.600 00:02:16.610 what they know and I'll just give you a
00:02:18.880 00:02:18.890 bit of air and I
00:02:19.670 00:02:19.680 where s CAI and Ireland are going in
00:02:22.819 00:02:22.829 terms of CHP I'm also gonna speak a
00:02:25.640 00:02:25.650 little bit about the SS or H which is
00:02:28.069 00:02:28.079 the Support Scheme for renewable heat
00:02:30.410 00:02:30.420 which in other districts would have been
00:02:32.240 00:02:32.250 called the RHI so that was announced in
00:02:35.559 00:02:35.569 2017 so I'll give you a little bit of an
00:02:38.059 00:02:38.069 outline on that it's still very much in
00:02:40.039 00:02:40.049 its infancy but I can we can talk around
00:02:43.429 00:02:43.439 it anyway today so again the three
00:02:46.099 00:02:46.109 people that were going to be here was
00:02:47.569 00:02:47.579 Matthew Clancy who was a head of CHP in
00:02:50.270 00:02:50.280 biomass and Ray Langton who's in charge
00:02:53.509 00:02:53.519 of the SS or hedge scheme and Martin
00:02:56.690 00:02:56.700 Holley from Cork who's in charge of our
00:02:58.640 00:02:58.650 statistics and everything so I'm just
00:03:00.440 00:03:00.450 going to start with an intro about the
00:03:02.059 00:03:02.069 trends around CHP then I'm going to talk
00:03:06.020 00:03:06.030 about the support available around CHP
00:03:08.420 00:03:08.430 in Ireland currently and then around the
00:03:10.819 00:03:10.829 support scheme for renewable heat so the
00:03:16.069 00:03:16.079 current trends so that's the line of
00:03:18.170 00:03:18.180 where CHP is at the moment currently
00:03:22.879 00:03:22.889 with a growth rate of about 2.1 percent
00:03:24.819 00:03:24.829 you'll see that there's a real spike
00:03:28.069 00:03:28.079 there in 2005 and that's with other
00:03:30.949 00:03:30.959 aluminium in Limerick so pitching along
00:03:35.390 00:03:35.400 there we're looking at overall
00:03:37.670 00:03:37.680 installations currently around 350
00:03:40.219 00:03:40.229 megawatts II and by 2020 were looking
00:03:44.330 00:03:44.340 about 450 and then to kind of break it
00:03:48.619 00:03:48.629 down into the two areas and the slides
00:03:51.020 00:03:51.030 that I'm taking from here or actually
00:03:52.670 00:03:52.680 from the CHP and document the 2007
00:03:56.960 00:03:56.970 report that was done by Martin Harley so
00:03:58.819 00:03:58.829 this is all fully available down on sei
00:04:00.979 00:04:00.989 his website but when you look at the
00:04:03.140 00:04:03.150 food the large industry the food and
00:04:05.149 00:04:05.159 farmer you can see the various areas
00:04:07.729 00:04:07.739 that it takes we talked about organise
00:04:10.550 00:04:10.560 down in Limerick and that is where the
00:04:12.559 00:04:12.569 major installation is in this country
00:04:15.619 00:04:15.629 and the total is about 47 in total then
00:04:20.029 00:04:20.039 if we look many around CHP in smaller
00:04:23.360 00:04:23.370 areas such as district 18 in hotels with
00:04:26.600 00:04:26.610 the swimming pools and all the rest in
00:04:28.430 00:04:28.440 nursing homes were talking about 234 so
00:04:32.570 00:04:32.580 it's a lower
00:04:33.350 00:04:33.360 pasty of the heat pump which is more
00:04:34.939 00:04:34.949 common in Ireland and then this is just
00:04:39.409 00:04:39.419 a short slide based on what kind of
00:04:42.260 00:04:42.270 fuels dominate our feed these CHP units
00:04:46.309 00:04:46.319 as you can see the majority and I know
00:04:48.499 00:04:48.509 John's going to go into it a bit later
00:04:50.149 00:04:50.159 that majority of this is natural gas
00:04:52.059 00:04:52.069 well we see that and there are a few
00:04:55.580 00:04:55.590 that the most there would be biogas as
00:04:58.399 00:04:58.409 well so there is an increase a slight
00:05:01.820 00:05:01.830 increase
00:05:02.679 00:05:02.689 so this slide here again from the 2017
00:05:06.260 00:05:06.270 report will show the penetration in
00:05:08.990 00:05:09.000 relation to district heating systems as
00:05:10.999 00:05:11.009 you all know dissipations systems aren't
00:05:14.360 00:05:14.370 that common in Ireland so were in kind
00:05:16.219 00:05:16.229 of about seven-and-a-half percent
00:05:17.360 00:05:17.370 compared to other European countries on
00:05:22.339 00:05:22.349 this slide here this is how the
00:05:25.730 00:05:25.740 commission of utility regulation
00:05:28.149 00:05:28.159 recognizes CHP so it recognizes it under
00:05:31.969 00:05:31.979 its scheme as being useful heat they'll
00:05:35.029 00:05:35.039 want if you want to kind of register
00:05:36.740 00:05:36.750 your installation they'll want access to
00:05:38.809 00:05:38.819 the data you have to report annually and
00:05:42.260 00:05:42.270 also there'll be audits carried out on
00:05:44.749 00:05:44.759 your installation and that will tie you
00:05:47.480 00:05:47.490 into another area around that the tax
00:05:50.689 00:05:50.699 credits that you can get on that so
00:05:54.140 00:05:54.150 support for CHP SceI currently have the
00:05:57.800 00:05:57.810 e EOS scheme and this scheme has been
00:05:59.959 00:05:59.969 known for a number of years now and this
00:06:02.450 00:06:02.460 is around where the polluter pays so all
00:06:04.969 00:06:04.979 of your utility companies etc are trying
00:06:07.820 00:06:07.830 they have developed the more fuel that
00:06:11.689 00:06:11.699 they say in in terms of carbon the more
00:06:14.570 00:06:14.580 they have to give back in terms of
00:06:16.369 00:06:16.379 energy efficient installations so the
00:06:20.240 00:06:20.250 EOS has kind of three areas it would
00:06:22.219 00:06:22.229 have fuel poor it would have domestic
00:06:24.050 00:06:24.060 installations you'll probably see a lot
00:06:25.850 00:06:25.860 of I was going to name them but I can't
00:06:28.909 00:06:28.919 kind of utility suppliers knocking on
00:06:30.679 00:06:30.689 the door saying we can give you we can
00:06:32.179 00:06:32.189 insulate your house we can do this
00:06:33.709 00:06:33.719 that's all because of the targets there
00:06:35.899 00:06:35.909 that they have to achieve but there also
00:06:38.089 00:06:38.099 have an industrial are a commercial
00:06:40.040 00:06:40.050 target as well and this is where CHP
00:06:42.559 00:06:42.569 comes in so we do recognize CHP
00:06:46.310 00:06:46.320 and and we would see it not too
00:06:49.070 00:06:49.080 different from the utility regulator in
00:06:51.710 00:06:51.720 terms of when we give you credits for it
00:06:54.320 00:06:54.330 it must be your own heat that you're
00:06:56.870 00:06:56.880 using in your area with a calculator on
00:06:59.450 00:06:59.460 the SE AI website it's based around an
00:07:02.210 00:07:02.220 x2 of the energy efficiency directive
00:07:04.210 00:07:04.220 2012 and so what we want to make sure
00:07:08.180 00:07:08.190 that the heat that you are creating on
00:07:10.880 00:07:10.890 the CHP is not dumped and so what is
00:07:15.110 00:07:15.120 this scheme really it's it's kind of as
00:07:17.240 00:07:17.250 much you'll get involved with the
00:07:19.550 00:07:19.560 utility suppliers and they will give you
00:07:21.530 00:07:21.540 financial support and technical support
00:07:23.840 00:07:23.850 around your CHP if you're thinking of
00:07:26.000 00:07:26.010 importing it into it into a unit the tax
00:07:30.560 00:07:30.570 relief is not my expertise so I'm just
00:07:32.960 00:07:32.970 going to leave the slide up there in
00:07:34.400 00:07:34.410 terms it is recognized if you look at
00:07:37.040 00:07:37.050 the kind of the utility regulator there
00:07:40.070 00:07:40.080 it certifies the CHP plants and you can
00:07:43.190 00:07:43.200 get full tax relief in terms of the
00:07:44.780 00:07:44.790 carbon tax that is based around the fuel
00:07:50.200 00:07:50.210 so the interest in one our new the new
00:07:55.550 00:07:55.560 air show in town is the SS or H as I
00:07:58.970 00:07:58.980 said it's very much along the lines of
00:08:01.550 00:08:01.560 the or H I that was in the UK but we
00:08:04.880 00:08:04.890 have a chance to learn from the mistakes
00:08:07.190 00:08:07.200 that were made and from all the good
00:08:09.290 00:08:09.300 installations that were there as well so
00:08:11.210 00:08:11.220 the government announced in December
00:08:13.930 00:08:13.940 2017 that SCA I would administer the
00:08:17.240 00:08:17.250 scheme and we developed a program so
00:08:18.860 00:08:18.870 we're still very much in the development
00:08:20.780 00:08:20.790 stage of the program we're still dealing
00:08:23.480 00:08:23.490 with the terms and conditions of that
00:08:25.430 00:08:25.440 program in other words what size of unit
00:08:27.770 00:08:27.780 should you have etc etc what technical
00:08:30.200 00:08:30.210 standards are based around that what are
00:08:32.209 00:08:32.219 we expecting you to do so earlier on we
00:08:36.050 00:08:36.060 can see that it's really around
00:08:38.750 00:08:38.760 standards and standards of installations
00:08:40.940 00:08:40.950 where other installations would have
00:08:42.200 00:08:42.210 felt would be in relation to buildings
00:08:44.690 00:08:44.700 that were poorly insulated that won't be
00:08:46.820 00:08:46.830 a part we more than likely have a
00:08:48.230 00:08:48.240 minimum BER that you're going to have
00:08:49.880 00:08:49.890 for that building so we make sure that
00:08:51.860 00:08:51.870 in energy efficient heat that you're
00:08:53.780 00:08:53.790 using is being used to the best access
00:08:56.180 00:08:56.190 and it's not just heating a draft as
00:08:58.730 00:08:58.740 such
00:08:59.189 00:08:59.199 and he says it advanced but I can't
00:09:02.519 00:09:02.529 remember
00:09:02.849 00:09:02.859 anyway I'll move on so the target really
00:09:05.849 00:09:05.859 is to looking at about three percentage
00:09:08.759 00:09:08.769 points that we need to increase and this
00:09:11.309 00:09:11.319 is all based on naturally our European
00:09:13.470 00:09:13.480 targets that we need to meet so they'll
00:09:15.720 00:09:15.730 be financially support for the
00:09:17.069 00:09:17.079 installation and actually as I said
00:09:18.720 00:09:18.730 before they'll all be energy-efficient
00:09:20.999 00:09:21.009 installations like I gave you the
00:09:22.530 00:09:22.540 example of the factory at a commercial
00:09:24.929 00:09:24.939 building that needs to be insulated that
00:09:26.699 00:09:26.709 a little bit more than it normally is we
00:09:29.280 00:09:29.290 also have let's say and biomass has been
00:09:32.460 00:09:32.470 used for a process we would want to make
00:09:35.879 00:09:35.889 sure that all of those pipes are
00:09:37.679 00:09:37.689 properly insulated that there's energy
00:09:39.299 00:09:39.309 efficient pumps etc etc on that unit so
00:09:45.299 00:09:45.309 the core principles of the scheme I kind
00:09:47.069 00:09:47.079 of explained already really are based
00:09:48.780 00:09:48.790 around rigorous standards in terms of
00:09:52.439 00:09:52.449 will be looking naturally the building
00:09:53.879 00:09:53.889 regulations we can't contradict them we
00:09:56.849 00:09:56.859 have the construction products
00:09:58.199 00:09:58.209 installation there's en standards
00:09:59.519 00:09:59.529 there's sabzi guides there's ASHRAE
00:10:01.829 00:10:01.839 guides all these type of guides will be
00:10:03.780 00:10:03.790 used air quality standards as well
00:10:06.299 00:10:06.309 because now we're kind of we're talking
00:10:08.759 00:10:08.769 about supply should have said at the
00:10:09.960 00:10:09.970 start when I'm talk about SS or hate
00:10:11.759 00:10:11.769 this doesn't include CHP but naturally
00:10:14.369 00:10:14.379 of biomass installation will have a
00:10:16.409 00:10:16.419 great add-on to that is CHP so these
00:10:19.859 00:10:19.869 kind of things all work together so we
00:10:23.189 00:10:23.199 have to make sure the designers in the
00:10:24.659 00:10:24.669 installations are competent and receipts
00:10:28.289 00:10:28.299 of payment things like this will be
00:10:30.319 00:10:30.329 subject to tax clearance so where is the
00:10:34.229 00:10:34.239 scheme going at the moment it's looking
00:10:36.239 00:10:36.249 at two primary technologies at the
00:10:38.429 00:10:38.439 moment it is looking at heat pumps where
00:10:40.559 00:10:40.569 there'll be enough from grant yeah we're
00:10:42.989 00:10:42.999 still working out the levels and how to
00:10:44.720 00:10:44.730 give that grant for the best value for
00:10:47.279 00:10:47.289 the Irish consumer and the biomass side
00:10:50.939 00:10:50.949 of the grant will be based on a tariff
00:10:53.369 00:10:53.379 or you will be paid per unit of heat
00:10:56.129 00:10:56.139 that you use to energy efficiency energy
00:10:58.769 00:10:58.779 efficient heat so they're naturally
00:11:00.809 00:11:00.819 there will be all this energy
00:11:02.299 00:11:02.309 eligibility that we will be talking
00:11:04.079 00:11:04.089 about and it looks like the scheme will
00:11:08.609 00:11:08.619 start off slow but it will build as I
00:11:11.100 00:11:11.110 say as the the installations
00:11:13.120 00:11:13.130 so there would be a mentoring scheme
00:11:15.730 00:11:15.740 there so we're not just asking people
00:11:17.410 00:11:17.420 just in still install any and it will
00:11:19.810 00:11:19.820 biomass scheme into their Marshall
00:11:24.100 00:11:24.110 buildings so SCA I as to say we're in
00:11:28.570 00:11:28.580 the very early days but we are speaking
00:11:31.210 00:11:31.220 to a lot of consultants who were
00:11:32.680 00:11:32.690 involved in the Rho u scheme over in the
00:11:34.750 00:11:34.760 UK talking about the standards that they
00:11:37.870 00:11:37.880 use naturally there's a legal and
00:11:39.730 00:11:39.740 peculiar man site around all of this
00:11:41.860 00:11:41.870 this communications our website will
00:11:44.200 00:11:44.210 need to be updated a lot more to support
00:11:45.940 00:11:45.950 people in terms of guidance what to do
00:11:48.520 00:11:48.530 information for planners information for
00:11:51.400 00:11:51.410 business owners maybe there would be in
00:11:53.760 00:11:53.770 information on how to fund these type of
00:11:55.930 00:11:55.940 schemes and we're going to have to
00:11:58.000 00:11:58.010 inspect a lot of these schemes as well
00:11:59.890 00:11:59.900 so we're taking on or taking on quite a
00:12:02.020 00:12:02.030 lot here so we'll be going out making
00:12:04.120 00:12:04.130 sure read in the heat meter is for a
00:12:05.530 00:12:05.540 biomass unit let's just say maybe making
00:12:07.870 00:12:07.880 sure that those units are you know
00:12:10.360 00:12:10.370 whether they're to the Norwegian
00:12:11.950 00:12:11.960 standard or whether it's the UK like the
00:12:13.930 00:12:13.940 Norwegian standard would have a clock so
00:12:15.670 00:12:15.680 you can tamper with it but the UK you
00:12:17.410 00:12:17.420 could just pull out the probe and all of
00:12:19.390 00:12:19.400 a sudden it was clicking up money in
00:12:21.880 00:12:21.890 terms of energy and you were being paid
00:12:24.220 00:12:24.230 for it again will be the HR side of it
00:12:26.920 00:12:26.930 the finance and the IT side of it as
00:12:29.440 00:12:29.450 well so these are all the kind of areas
00:12:32.260 00:12:32.270 that SCA I are taking on and this again
00:12:35.110 00:12:35.120 if you were to ask me when will it start
00:12:37.270 00:12:37.280 more than likely
00:12:38.680 00:12:38.690 we are drawing up the kind of T's and
00:12:40.900 00:12:40.910 C's at the moment with the Department of
00:12:42.910 00:12:42.920 Energy
00:12:43.840 00:12:43.850 so we're reporting those to them and
00:12:46.270 00:12:46.280 they will decide on if they're
00:12:48.130 00:12:48.140 acceptable or not and then we move into
00:12:50.230 00:12:50.240 the scheme so more than likely we'll be
00:12:52.330 00:12:52.340 looking into the second half of the year
00:12:54.280 00:12:54.290 before you see any of these schemes
00:12:55.960 00:12:55.970 common online being assessed it's
00:12:59.440 00:12:59.450 important that at this stage there's
00:13:02.170 00:13:02.180 going to be no grandfather in rule so
00:13:04.270 00:13:04.280 what that means is that any existing
00:13:05.920 00:13:05.930 installation that is there will not be
00:13:08.440 00:13:08.450 incentivized that's not in stone but
00:13:11.590 00:13:11.600 that's the way it more than likely is
00:13:13.240 00:13:13.250 going ken can pass on the slides or I
00:13:16.570 00:13:16.580 know the gentleman from engineers
00:13:18.130 00:13:18.140 Ireland who's controlling this in a
00:13:19.600 00:13:19.610 laptop open the cafe is he's gonna send
00:13:22.870 00:13:22.880 her up the slide so all the links will
00:13:24.400 00:13:24.410 be there so primarily the links as I
00:13:26.590 00:13:26.600 said
00:13:26.920 00:13:26.930 do take a look at the CHP report 2007
00:13:29.860 00:13:29.870 and said I know John will be referring
00:13:31.360 00:13:31.370 to it and that is all I have to say if
00:13:34.870 00:13:34.880 you've any questions for me if I can't
00:13:37.960 00:13:37.970 answer them I will pass them on to my
00:13:39.760 00:13:39.770 colleagues ken will take your details as
00:13:42.040 00:13:42.050 I have to run off to another event
00:13:44.820 00:13:44.830 tonight so thank you very much for your
00:13:47.470 00:13:47.480 time no just I we do have an online
00:14:00.820 00:14:00.830 audience as well so if anybody is online
00:14:03.850 00:14:03.860 can hear me and probably can see me and
00:14:05.769 00:14:05.779 if you send me an email and I with your
00:14:09.070 00:14:09.080 question and I will get it responded to
00:14:18.960 00:14:18.970 so the second speaker is mr. John hight
00:14:24.040 00:14:24.050 John is the National Sales Manager for
00:14:26.740 00:14:26.750 centrica business solutions John is
00:14:29.320 00:14:29.330 mechanical and manufacturing engineer
00:14:31.030 00:14:31.040 but over 10 years experience in the USA
00:14:33.250 00:14:33.260 the UK and Ireland in low-carbon
00:14:35.980 00:14:35.990 technology industries he's an
00:14:38.410 00:14:38.420 experienced in a full range of district
00:14:39.910 00:14:39.920 heating technologies metering tariffs
00:14:42.040 00:14:42.050 and escort services within Centrica John
00:14:46.030 00:14:46.040 manages a team to deliver CHP solutions
00:14:48.130 00:14:48.140 to their clients in both the UK and
00:14:49.660 00:14:49.670 Ireland in the commercial residential
00:14:51.990 00:14:52.000 district heating food beverage
00:14:54.010 00:14:54.020 manufacturing healthcare and
00:14:55.390 00:14:55.400 pharmaceutical sectors so without
00:14:57.460 00:14:57.470 further ado John
00:15:02.949 00:15:02.959 thanks Ken and take your ball that was
00:15:05.439 00:15:05.449 very insightful let me just do slides
00:15:10.269 00:15:10.279 yep so thank you for inviting me along
00:15:12.670 00:15:12.680 today as Ken has already said I'm from
00:15:17.499 00:15:17.509 centrica business solutions raise our
00:15:20.980 00:15:20.990 hands does anybody know who centric is
00:15:22.689 00:15:22.699 or what we do to two people
00:15:27.489 00:15:27.499 okay well Centrica is the the owning
00:15:32.799 00:15:32.809 company that we own British Gas borer
00:15:36.340 00:15:36.350 gosh and direct energy in the US so we
00:15:40.960 00:15:40.970 have a turnover both 30 billion per
00:15:43.359 00:15:43.369 annum and the company I work for is
00:15:46.389 00:15:46.399 energy combined power and we were
00:15:48.730 00:15:48.740 required by Centrica in 2016 so what I'm
00:15:53.679 00:15:53.689 going to talk to you today about is
00:15:55.389 00:15:55.399 combined heat and power I'm gonna give
00:15:58.179 00:15:58.189 you an introduction to it I'm gonna move
00:16:00.069 00:16:00.079 quickly along I've quite a lot of slides
00:16:02.850 00:16:02.860 so I keep you entertained if anybody has
00:16:06.009 00:16:06.019 any question and they want to just show
00:16:07.720 00:16:07.730 out there go for it you know I'd want
00:16:09.579 00:16:09.589 this to be dead by a power point I want
00:16:11.139 00:16:11.149 to have a bit of a bit of banter okay so
00:16:14.169 00:16:14.179 so we move on check out our websites
00:16:18.460 00:16:18.470 we've allowed on there does a lot of
00:16:19.869 00:16:19.879 videos and things you can have a look at
00:16:21.369 00:16:21.379 and it really kind of simplifies the
00:16:23.650 00:16:23.660 kind of utility world that we operate in
00:16:25.389 00:16:25.399 so so please check that out and this is
00:16:27.759 00:16:27.769 a list of the contents we're going to
00:16:29.110 00:16:29.120 look at there's nine sections here I
00:16:30.699 00:16:30.709 think we'll get to probably section 7 in
00:16:33.040 00:16:33.050 an hour but maybe we will take a vote at
00:16:35.230 00:16:35.240 the end of that and if you want me to
00:16:36.340 00:16:36.350 continue I can but I think we can hang
00:16:38.739 00:16:38.749 around afterwards can't can't we there's
00:16:40.210 00:16:40.220 a nice establishment here that we can
00:16:42.699 00:16:42.709 have a refreshment and chat further so
00:16:45.910 00:16:45.920 just to give you a quick overview of who
00:16:47.619 00:16:47.629 we are because only two people here
00:16:49.239 00:16:49.249 knows and we are the company I work for
00:16:53.039 00:16:53.049 directly is energy combined power and
00:16:56.110 00:16:56.120 we've been a CHP manufacturer in
00:16:57.610 00:16:57.620 Manchester for 35 years
00:16:59.199 00:16:59.209 and as I said earlier we're required by
00:17:01.119 00:17:01.129 centrica and now we work all over the
00:17:03.699 00:17:03.709 world yeah so
00:17:10.730 00:17:10.740 so we distributed CHP into America into
00:17:16.260 00:17:16.270 Japan Australia and with a big install
00:17:18.449 00:17:18.459 base in Ireland with Tim technology and
00:17:22.319 00:17:22.329 we also have a big install base in
00:17:24.360 00:17:24.370 Europe so Tim technology is our partner
00:17:27.569 00:17:27.579 here and that provides CHP service
00:17:30.230 00:17:30.240 operation a maintenance and they're
00:17:32.160 00:17:32.170 based in Limerick Robert Brock Road is
00:17:34.470 00:17:34.480 here today from technology if anybody
00:17:36.630 00:17:36.640 wants to speed on letter so in Ireland
00:17:39.690 00:17:39.700 we have over 200 installations of small
00:17:42.810 00:17:42.820 scale CHP and we've been working with
00:17:45.600 00:17:45.610 them technology for about 25 years so a
00:17:48.210 00:17:48.220 very solid partner and these are some of
00:17:51.000 00:17:51.010 the installations so we work with carry
00:17:53.010 00:17:53.020 group we work with the health board and
00:17:55.590 00:17:55.600 a lot of hotel industry and leisure
00:17:58.800 00:17:58.810 centres so if we think back to Paul
00:18:01.140 00:18:01.150 slides earlier about the different
00:18:02.400 00:18:02.410 sectors you could see that there's a lot
00:18:04.590 00:18:04.600 of leisure and what have an industry
00:18:06.240 00:18:06.250 there also a lot of government buildings
00:18:08.340 00:18:08.350 as well and these are some of the people
00:18:11.340 00:18:11.350 we deal with okay so we end up dealing
00:18:16.620 00:18:16.630 with them on a long-term basis after
00:18:18.750 00:18:18.760 installation after practical completion
00:18:21.660 00:18:21.670 it's about running a CHP and I think
00:18:25.560 00:18:25.570 people need to know more about what
00:18:27.750 00:18:27.760 happens to CHP over over its lifetime
00:18:29.460 00:18:29.470 we're talking about 10 to 15 years the
00:18:32.640 00:18:32.650 CHP is running um what I'm talking about
00:18:36.030 00:18:36.040 mainly today is reciprocating engines
00:18:38.030 00:18:38.040 and those engines are like your care and
00:18:40.700 00:18:40.710 if your car was running like these
00:18:43.800 00:18:43.810 engines 24/7 365 it's the equivalent of
00:18:47.460 00:18:47.470 300 thousand miles around the world so
00:18:51.000 00:18:51.010 if your car was got to maintain at every
00:18:52.920 00:18:52.930 50,000 miles you'd be in there about six
00:18:55.620 00:18:55.630 times so it doesn't translate as simple
00:18:58.440 00:18:58.450 as that well what it does add up to is a
00:19:00.390 00:19:00.400 lot of maintenance for the generation on
00:19:02.940 00:19:02.950 site but I'll get into that a bit more
00:19:04.770 00:19:04.780 detail so why are we talking about CHP
00:19:08.430 00:19:08.440 okay what's the big deal with CHP I
00:19:10.470 00:19:10.480 suppose people are here more and more
00:19:12.030 00:19:12.040 now are you
00:19:12.690 00:19:12.700 CHP popping up maybe on planning
00:19:15.210 00:19:15.220 applications carb and things like that
00:19:17.190 00:19:17.200 and this is a question for the audience
00:19:19.680 00:19:19.690 now I'm gonna try and get you talking
00:19:21.240 00:19:21.250 you know
00:19:21.820 00:19:21.830 I prefer to have a bit of a two-way
00:19:23.980 00:19:23.990 communication I don't like the sound of
00:19:25.899 00:19:25.909 my own voice too much so
00:19:28.019 00:19:28.029 CHP does anybody want to show hands is
00:19:30.789 00:19:30.799 the generator few people a boiler you're
00:19:38.409 00:19:38.419 ruining it mister you know he's right he
00:19:41.799 00:19:41.809 said both you know it's a trick question
00:19:43.930 00:19:43.940 and I knew guys like you were there and
00:19:46.000 00:19:46.010 ladies would know this chp comes about
00:19:50.649 00:19:50.659 from the combined output from burning a
00:19:55.899 00:19:55.909 fuel and utilizing the heat from the
00:19:59.259 00:19:59.269 jacket and the exhaust while also
00:20:02.080 00:20:02.090 turning a generator and utilizing that
00:20:04.330 00:20:04.340 electricity as well so against that is
00:20:07.480 00:20:07.490 in the name and I knew you guys would
00:20:09.490 00:20:09.500 know all about that so the next few
00:20:11.169 00:20:11.179 slides I'm going to quickly move on yeah
00:20:13.330 00:20:13.340 so we're talking about the primary
00:20:14.289 00:20:14.299 energy and this is what we see today we
00:20:17.680 00:20:17.690 see a lot of waste from electricity
00:20:19.299 00:20:19.309 generation further afield provincial
00:20:22.090 00:20:22.100 borders are much better we've got that
00:20:23.919 00:20:23.929 kind of 80% efficiency and I would say
00:20:26.080 00:20:26.090 even higher than that and today's world
00:20:27.970 00:20:27.980 with condensing boilers CHP looks a
00:20:30.730 00:20:30.740 little bit like this where you're
00:20:31.930 00:20:31.940 getting this ratio of 35% electricity to
00:20:34.600 00:20:34.610 45% heat and when you stack them up side
00:20:38.200 00:20:38.210 by side it looks like this so the gain
00:20:40.480 00:20:40.490 here really and we could say maybe in
00:20:43.120 00:20:43.130 today's world the combined efficiency at
00:20:45.129 00:20:45.139 the top there you could say it maybe at
00:20:48.039 00:20:48.049 65% okay
00:20:50.409 00:20:50.419 these figures are taken from the carbon
00:20:52.149 00:20:52.159 first in 2004 by the way so let's add on
00:20:55.060 00:20:55.070 a bit more here for for a more efficient
00:20:57.850 00:20:57.860 society we live in and if we looked at
00:21:00.310 00:21:00.320 the higher heating value of 80% for CHP
00:21:03.730 00:21:03.740 you could see the saving error of about
00:21:05.769 00:21:05.779 20 maybe 25 percent and from a primary
00:21:09.310 00:21:09.320 fuel point of view that's what we're
00:21:11.830 00:21:11.840 talking about that's why you see HP fits
00:21:14.560 00:21:14.570 well from a carbon point of view this is
00:21:17.860 00:21:17.870 a marginal abatement curve from the NHS
00:21:20.320 00:21:20.330 where they've shown that combined heat
00:21:22.149 00:21:22.159 and power above any other technology or
00:21:24.759 00:21:24.769 process they could implement in any
00:21:26.259 00:21:26.269 hospital in the UK has the greatest
00:21:28.480 00:21:28.490 savings for carbon that also happens
00:21:32.529 00:21:32.539 because hospitals are running 24/7 would
00:21:34.960 00:21:34.970 have consist
00:21:35.470 00:21:35.480 and Lord for heat and electricity okay
00:21:37.960 00:21:37.970 but but this is why CHP is coming to the
00:21:40.750 00:21:40.760 fore at the moment okay
00:21:43.860 00:21:43.870 so I'll move on quickly
00:21:46.300 00:21:46.310 where does CHP work best well CHP will
00:21:50.140 00:21:50.150 work in most instances where you have a
00:21:53.560 00:21:53.570 load for electricity and a suitable note
00:21:56.350 00:21:56.360 for you as well and usually there's a
00:21:58.690 00:21:58.700 bit more heat in the CHP you might have
00:22:00.880 00:22:00.890 a ratio of about one to 1.3 for CHP from
00:22:07.150 00:22:07.160 electricity so if you have areas like
00:22:10.300 00:22:10.310 hotels larger centers hospitals that are
00:22:13.330 00:22:13.340 hungry for more heat well they will use
00:22:15.760 00:22:15.770 the electricity as well all the time
00:22:17.820 00:22:17.830 okay so you can see here if you look
00:22:20.650 00:22:20.660 around a clockwise hotels leisure
00:22:22.210 00:22:22.220 schools will have a good load but
00:22:24.310 00:22:24.320 they'll have that seasonal time when
00:22:26.260 00:22:26.270 they won't have a good law that summer
00:22:28.050 00:22:28.060 data centers are where we would use
00:22:31.810 00:22:31.820 trigeneration we use absorption chilling
00:22:34.870 00:22:34.880 combined with the CHP that gives you a
00:22:37.990 00:22:38.000 third output from this technology okay
00:22:42.750 00:22:42.760 Industrial there's always a good one
00:22:44.560 00:22:44.570 where there's heat demand there plenty
00:22:46.450 00:22:46.460 of electricity that can use at district
00:22:48.790 00:22:48.800 heating as we we'll know mixed
00:22:51.790 00:22:51.800 developments Healthcare ad we would we
00:22:54.640 00:22:54.650 would use the ad gases and modified the
00:22:57.130 00:22:57.140 CHP so they'd burn and generate
00:22:58.660 00:22:58.670 electricity and then at the Prison
00:23:00.640 00:23:00.650 Service in the UK as well a lot of
00:23:02.830 00:23:02.840 people sticky situations this is the
00:23:09.310 00:23:09.320 range for micro CHP from four kilowatt
00:23:11.770 00:23:11.780 up to 50 kilowatt I think in in the in
00:23:14.920 00:23:14.930 Europe it's defined as micro and above
00:23:16.990 00:23:17.000 50 then is a small-scale CHP and we
00:23:19.600 00:23:19.610 package a manufacturer at all in
00:23:21.130 00:23:21.140 Manchester that's what a typical small
00:23:24.880 00:23:24.890 scale CHP would look like important
00:23:27.700 00:23:27.710 thing to note is access from front and
00:23:29.290 00:23:29.300 back all around for maintenance
00:23:31.570 00:23:31.580 I'll keep hammering on about maintenance
00:23:33.250 00:23:33.260 by the way CHP maintenance is key to
00:23:36.070 00:23:36.080 keeping a going a lot of moving parts in
00:23:38.620 00:23:38.630 this engine back here and you can see
00:23:40.480 00:23:40.490 the generator and that's the exhaust gas
00:23:42.340 00:23:42.350 heat exchanger and then the large range
00:23:45.880 00:23:45.890 of CHP goes up to about 2.4
00:23:48.940 00:23:48.950 okay and that's an example there are
00:23:50.930 00:23:50.940 some CHP configurations these would be
00:23:53.510 00:23:53.520 bespoke and usually with factories food
00:23:56.210 00:23:56.220 and drink manufacturing that kind of
00:23:58.040 00:23:58.050 thing where and some sites are unusual
00:24:00.200 00:24:00.210 some sites need planning application
00:24:01.940 00:24:01.950 some are ad plants and we have a lot in
00:24:05.690 00:24:05.700 the commercial retail sector as well
00:24:08.350 00:24:08.360 that's the inside of one of our large
00:24:10.340 00:24:10.350 units shows you the detail so it's a
00:24:12.590 00:24:12.600 it's a high quality build in the UK okay
00:24:16.780 00:24:16.790 so we've talked about CHP what why do we
00:24:20.660 00:24:20.670 have CHP and where does it work I know
00:24:23.120 00:24:23.130 what's in the box well what's what makes
00:24:25.400 00:24:25.410 up the CHP okay so this owner is that
00:24:29.390 00:24:29.400 Mouse working yep
00:24:30.740 00:24:30.750 okay if we start from the left to the
00:24:32.720 00:24:32.730 right here in this case we're going to
00:24:34.820 00:24:34.830 talk about natural gas so the fuel in is
00:24:36.980 00:24:36.990 natural gas air intake into the
00:24:39.200 00:24:39.210 combustion engine because the engine
00:24:41.240 00:24:41.250 needs to breathe to combust a fuel and
00:24:42.799 00:24:42.809 then we have the cold water returned
00:24:44.299 00:24:44.309 from the building so that's usually well
00:24:47.120 00:24:47.130 in today's where the temperatures are
00:24:49.400 00:24:49.410 changing all the time right there so
00:24:50.660 00:24:50.670 let's say 70 80 that kind of flow return
00:24:53.450 00:24:53.460 okay so let's take 70 degrees in here
00:24:56.810 00:24:56.820 and we circulate that water around the
00:25:00.770 00:25:00.780 jacket and as the Pistons go up and down
00:25:03.380 00:25:03.390 and burn the fuel coming in that jacket
00:25:05.570 00:25:05.580 gets warmer and it heats up the cold
00:25:07.820 00:25:07.830 water that cold water is passed through
00:25:10.160 00:25:10.170 here so let's say the cold water knows
00:25:11.690 00:25:11.700 that 75 degrees as it goes into this
00:25:14.240 00:25:14.250 exhaust gas heat exchanger the exhaust
00:25:17.240 00:25:17.250 gases then passed through a catalytic
00:25:19.280 00:25:19.290 converter that would clean up the NOx
00:25:21.799 00:25:21.809 and carbon emissions and then the water
00:25:25.280 00:25:25.290 you could see the color coding the earth
00:25:26.900 00:25:26.910 quite easy isn't it heats up from 75
00:25:29.720 00:25:29.730 degrees to 80 degrees it passes out to
00:25:32.210 00:25:32.220 the building and we usually have a plate
00:25:34.340 00:25:34.350 heat exchanger built within the CHP as
00:25:36.590 00:25:36.600 well and we would feed as the primary
00:25:38.930 00:25:38.940 boiler to feed the other boilers in the
00:25:41.419 00:25:41.429 system then allowing them to to not come
00:25:44.090 00:25:44.100 on as often with the CHP being the
00:25:46.340 00:25:46.350 primary burner if you follow the same
00:25:49.280 00:25:49.290 flow again and look at the gases you
00:25:52.700 00:25:52.710 could see that the exhaust gases passed
00:25:54.590 00:25:54.600 through here and at this point they're
00:25:56.570 00:25:56.580 at about six hundred and twenty degrees
00:25:58.750 00:25:58.760 okay by the time they exchange the heat
00:26:01.490 00:26:01.500 with the water
00:26:02.150 00:26:02.160 in the shell and tube heat exchanger
00:26:03.470 00:26:03.480 here they're coming out of about 120
00:26:05.390 00:26:05.400 degrees and and this is where we feed
00:26:08.900 00:26:08.910 out into the atmosphere and we don't
00:26:11.510 00:26:11.520 condense at that point some people talk
00:26:13.910 00:26:13.920 about condensing to get more efficiency
00:26:15.470 00:26:15.480 out of the unit
00:26:16.160 00:26:16.170 but that would degrade the lifetime of
00:26:18.710 00:26:18.720 the unit and there's a lot of other
00:26:20.600 00:26:20.610 implications out of that so in our
00:26:22.130 00:26:22.140 experience we don't condense we keep it
00:26:24.320 00:26:24.330 at 120 degrees the electricity
00:26:27.980 00:26:27.990 generation is a bit more straightforward
00:26:29.210 00:26:29.220 you've got a coupled generator face to
00:26:32.540 00:26:32.550 face with the prime mover here
00:26:33.920 00:26:33.930 so as that shaft of the engine rotates
00:26:35.810 00:26:35.820 the electricity is generated and fed out
00:26:38.300 00:26:38.310 to the building it's not okay that makes
00:26:42.080 00:26:42.090 sense so if you wanted to look at it in
00:26:47.870 00:26:47.880 a different perspective there's a P&ID
00:26:50.380 00:26:50.390 and what we just talked about there is
00:26:52.520 00:26:52.530 everything within the box okay yep
00:27:01.090 00:27:01.100 we can yep so this would be the set up
00:27:05.900 00:27:05.910 just for low-temperature hot water we
00:27:09.590 00:27:09.600 could have another tapping you know if
00:27:12.140 00:27:12.150 you can visualize here that we would
00:27:14.780 00:27:14.790 take steam off at that high temperature
00:27:16.670 00:27:16.680 that and it's it's a different setup
00:27:20.930 00:27:20.940 there's also in the horticultural
00:27:22.400 00:27:22.410 industry we can use a the carabiner
00:27:24.590 00:27:24.600 method as well so it is a there's a lot
00:27:26.720 00:27:26.730 of work in in Holland where we do a lot
00:27:32.840 00:27:32.850 of the horticultural industry so it
00:27:34.940 00:27:34.950 becomes Quad generation almost as heat
00:27:38.390 00:27:38.400 electricity and cooling and the carbon
00:27:41.930 00:27:41.940 output as well just to give you a kind
00:27:46.130 00:27:46.140 of a through of one of her skids
00:27:47.570 00:27:47.580 you can see the engine there so we will
00:27:50.600 00:27:50.610 go to a number of different engine
00:27:51.890 00:27:51.900 manufacturers across Germany man merci
00:27:56.480 00:27:56.490 des MTU Perkins so a lot of different
00:28:02.120 00:28:02.130 engine manufacturers we use and we build
00:28:03.890 00:28:03.900 them in to suit the size range that's
00:28:05.750 00:28:05.760 what the heads look like they're on one
00:28:07.190 00:28:07.200 of the engines and the generators again
00:28:09.980 00:28:09.990 we usually stick with a standardized
00:28:12.580 00:28:12.590 generator there that's what the windings
00:28:16.160 00:28:16.170 look with the cover removed the exhaust
00:28:18.890 00:28:18.900 gas heat exchanger
00:28:19.760 00:28:19.770 that's your simple shell and tube heat
00:28:22.760 00:28:22.770 exchanger it's usually the biggest piece
00:28:25.040 00:28:25.050 of kit at the bottom that's it going
00:28:28.070 00:28:28.080 together there in a factory and then we
00:28:31.520 00:28:31.530 usually include a plate heat exchanger
00:28:33.140 00:28:33.150 as well to give that hydraulic break
00:28:34.970 00:28:34.980 between what happens on the skate and
00:28:36.320 00:28:36.330 what happens in the building okay and
00:28:39.800 00:28:39.810 the the key part that we we've worked
00:28:42.320 00:28:42.330 hard on is they're controlling all this
00:28:43.790 00:28:43.800 so we use a controlled system of our own
00:28:46.010 00:28:46.020 making and you power it gives remote
00:28:49.010 00:28:49.020 access into the CHP you can do
00:28:51.080 00:28:51.090 everything remotely through that and the
00:28:53.840 00:28:53.850 key point for us really and for people
00:28:56.030 00:28:56.040 like Tim technology that managed this
00:28:57.980 00:28:57.990 fleet for us is being able to remotely
00:29:00.440 00:29:00.450 access and identify issues with the CHP
00:29:03.290 00:29:03.300 or actually in some cases because of
00:29:06.050 00:29:06.060 this kind of view you can identify flow
00:29:08.750 00:29:08.760 and return temperatures from the
00:29:10.040 00:29:10.050 building and so if there's something not
00:29:12.410 00:29:12.420 feeding the
00:29:12.989 00:29:12.999 PHP correctly you can identify that too
00:29:14.879 00:29:14.889 so it's about transparency actually in
00:29:17.009 00:29:17.019 this modern world of digital information
00:29:19.799 00:29:19.809 so this is a freely available with all
00:29:22.409 00:29:22.419 their see HP's at one area that's kind
00:29:25.289 00:29:25.299 of hard to tell you known as the
00:29:26.519 00:29:26.529 application component so everything that
00:29:28.199 00:29:28.209 ties into the CHP is kind of outside of
00:29:31.859 00:29:31.869 our control but I've just highlighted a
00:29:34.319 00:29:34.329 few points there and we're always on
00:29:36.449 00:29:36.459 hand and on Robert as well to talk about
00:29:38.219 00:29:38.229 things like that so when you think about
00:29:39.959 00:29:39.969 the the ventilation the gas connections
00:29:42.349 00:29:42.359 the full return to the building the
00:29:44.519 00:29:44.529 pumps and then the heat from radiators
00:29:47.069 00:29:47.079 and he rejection hue rejection isn't
00:29:50.579 00:29:50.589 something that we recommend but
00:29:52.379 00:29:52.389 sometimes it's the best thing for a
00:29:53.729 00:29:53.739 client to do in a certain situation but
00:29:56.189 00:29:56.199 we could talk more about that so Ken
00:29:59.519 00:29:59.529 asked me to talk a little bit about
00:30:00.629 00:30:00.639 diffuse for CHP and my answer to that
00:30:03.209 00:30:03.219 was well it's not to annouce isn't it
00:30:04.829 00:30:04.839 you know we do we don't bore gosh and we
00:30:07.529 00:30:07.539 have kind of a vested interest but we do
00:30:11.549 00:30:11.559 actually makes here to these rotar fuels
00:30:13.559 00:30:13.569 as well and I write truly a CIE so it's
00:30:17.129 00:30:17.139 pretty paul has left had a few questions
00:30:19.169 00:30:19.179 from and he scampered off but and this
00:30:22.919 00:30:22.929 this is a really good read it gives you
00:30:24.209 00:30:24.219 a good overview of what happens in
00:30:25.379 00:30:25.389 Ireland and with regard CHP and I just
00:30:28.529 00:30:28.539 picked out a few points one thing that
00:30:31.769 00:30:31.779 caught my eye was was yeah natural gases
00:30:33.779 00:30:33.789 is the is the biggest fuel that's used
00:30:35.699 00:30:35.709 for CHP and it's no surprise to me
00:30:38.399 00:30:38.409 really there's not a fuel pumped into
00:30:41.459 00:30:41.469 every city and and spread around the
00:30:43.679 00:30:43.689 whole country so so why wouldn't you use
00:30:46.199 00:30:46.209 it you know and maybe in the future
00:30:48.389 00:30:48.399 they'll convert it to something a little
00:30:50.429 00:30:50.439 less fossil based and sure you know my
00:30:53.819 00:30:53.829 company will be involved and not too but
00:30:55.769 00:30:55.779 in the meantime CHP a CHP because it
00:30:59.849 00:30:59.859 needs to run 24/7 and a can run 24/7 for
00:31:03.779 00:31:03.789 maximum efficiency and for maximum
00:31:05.819 00:31:05.829 output well if you've got a clean
00:31:07.979 00:31:07.989 reliable supply of gas that that's key
00:31:11.399 00:31:11.409 and unfortunately it's hard to do that
00:31:14.369 00:31:14.379 with a lot of other fuels but when those
00:31:16.439 00:31:16.449 fuels are available we always are
00:31:18.929 00:31:18.939 available to convert CHP to run like
00:31:21.329 00:31:21.339 that so in parts of the country where
00:31:22.829 00:31:22.839 they don't have gas with a lot of LPG
00:31:24.989 00:31:24.999 units so I think I'm in Carey
00:31:26.700 00:31:26.710 as one area with a lot of installed you
00:31:29.190 00:31:29.200 probably know more about it than I do
00:31:30.990 00:31:31.000 but that allows it kind of a completely
00:31:33.990 00:31:34.000 off the grid set up one other area
00:31:37.470 00:31:37.480 noticed was that the the fuel input had
00:31:40.500 00:31:40.510 decreased by 1.3 percent so that's that
00:31:42.570 00:31:42.580 primary energy saving we talked about
00:31:44.460 00:31:44.470 but the electricity output had increased
00:31:47.070 00:31:47.080 so that to me says that we're doing
00:31:50.039 00:31:50.049 something a bit better with our
00:31:50.940 00:31:50.950 technology and CHP as a as America is
00:31:54.419 00:31:54.429 becoming more efficient and that must be
00:31:57.480 00:31:57.490 good for everybody
00:31:58.320 00:31:58.330 you know so I'd recommend people to have
00:32:00.870 00:32:00.880 a look at that it's very good also the
00:32:04.350 00:32:04.360 76 percent efficiency has increased 82
00:32:07.889 00:32:07.899 percent as well so the figures are going
00:32:10.049 00:32:10.059 the right way the in the table of fuels
00:32:14.909 00:32:14.919 by I read into it that biogas was the
00:32:19.019 00:32:19.029 third in a number of capacity oil-based
00:32:24.090 00:32:24.100 fuels at 7.5 megawatts was next under
00:32:28.740 00:32:28.750 natural gas at 285 megawatts interesting
00:32:33.960 00:32:33.970 the 160 megawatts of that his
00:32:36.029 00:32:36.039 organization Lumina or Roussel in
00:32:37.980 00:32:37.990 Limerick so you know it's that skews the
00:32:40.560 00:32:40.570 table a little bit okay one thing that
00:32:45.299 00:32:45.309 we always do talk about where that fuel
00:32:47.159 00:32:47.169 is the higher heating value and the
00:32:48.840 00:32:48.850 lower heating value where is hands again
00:32:51.630 00:32:51.640 for everybody who knows about higher
00:32:52.919 00:32:52.929 heating value and nor he's a value is
00:32:55.430 00:32:55.440 everybody great and lower heating value
00:33:01.669 00:33:01.679 so getting back to better thermodynamics
00:33:03.899 00:33:03.909 as everybody remember doing this in
00:33:05.789 00:33:05.799 college but what we're talking about
00:33:08.190 00:33:08.200 here is when the vapor is not condensed
00:33:11.159 00:33:11.169 to water and the latent heat of
00:33:12.630 00:33:12.640 vaporization of water is not usable so
00:33:16.260 00:33:16.270 it's that point in combustion when the
00:33:20.549 00:33:20.559 gas is ignited and is transforming into
00:33:23.220 00:33:23.230 vapor and exploding what amount of water
00:33:27.539 00:33:27.549 is left yeah and some people use lower
00:33:30.630 00:33:30.640 heating value well if you do that you're
00:33:33.600 00:33:33.610 going to end up in the scenario where
00:33:34.830 00:33:34.840 you may show efficiencies a greater than
00:33:38.860 00:33:38.870 theoretically possible okay so we would
00:33:42.260 00:33:42.270 watch over that it also called a net
00:33:44.600 00:33:44.610 calorific value in lower calorific value
00:33:46.400 00:33:46.410 so people might be more familiar with
00:33:47.630 00:33:47.640 that the higher even value is is
00:33:50.930 00:33:50.940 probably a better way of looking at it
00:33:53.120 00:33:53.130 and because it cannot exceed 100% as
00:33:55.790 00:33:55.800 well so this is the situation where you
00:33:57.710 00:33:57.720 have maybe a boiler being expressed as a
00:34:01.970 00:34:01.980 hundred and forty percent efficient well
00:34:03.530 00:34:03.540 actually it's about 95 percent efficient
00:34:05.450 00:34:05.460 if you look at it this way
00:34:07.240 00:34:07.250 okay this and this assumes water is in
00:34:10.040 00:34:10.050 the liquid state after combustion which
00:34:12.410 00:34:12.420 which tends to happen
00:34:13.790 00:34:13.800 okay I'm going back to the books again
00:34:15.980 00:34:15.990 we're talking about the enthalpy change
00:34:18.230 00:34:18.240 for the reaction assumes a common
00:34:20.240 00:34:20.250 temperature for compounds before and
00:34:22.010 00:34:22.020 after combustion and that makes sense
00:34:24.830 00:34:24.840 when you think about it doesn't yeah so
00:34:28.550 00:34:28.560 the thing I use to remember this for
00:34:30.860 00:34:30.870 myself is the higher heating value gives
00:34:33.200 00:34:33.210 a lower efficiency so it's a more
00:34:35.360 00:34:35.370 realistic view so so what you might be
00:34:39.470 00:34:39.480 saying so what well well actually makes
00:34:41.330 00:34:41.340 it's quite a difference because if
00:34:43.490 00:34:43.500 you're using the wrong values and
00:34:46.240 00:34:46.250 somebody else has used the other value
00:34:49.610 00:34:49.620 there could be an 11 percent difference
00:34:51.680 00:34:51.690 in the predicted cost of your fuel and
00:34:54.940 00:34:54.950 you're near that could add up to quite a
00:34:57.200 00:34:57.210 lot okay so this is just a quick look at
00:35:05.420 00:35:05.430 emissions in the UK I don't hear it
00:35:08.060 00:35:08.070 mentioned too often in Ireland with
00:35:09.530 00:35:09.540 relation to CHP so I may be pre-empting
00:35:12.860 00:35:12.870 something that might be coming on the
00:35:14.480 00:35:14.490 tracks but I thought I just put that in
00:35:16.430 00:35:16.440 here as well since we're talking about
00:35:17.780 00:35:17.790 fuel and at the products of our fuel
00:35:20.750 00:35:20.760 afterwards in London for a long time now
00:35:23.060 00:35:23.070 we've been governed by the sustainable
00:35:25.130 00:35:25.140 design in construction documents coming
00:35:28.430 00:35:28.440 from the Mayor of London and we used to
00:35:30.890 00:35:30.900 finally call this the Baris plan and it
00:35:34.430 00:35:34.440 was like the bar spikes painful and
00:35:37.630 00:35:37.640 nobody really wanted to use it but it
00:35:40.940 00:35:40.950 was there any way to help the greater
00:35:42.680 00:35:42.690 good and in this they talked about using
00:35:45.460 00:35:45.470 FCR technology that's selective
00:35:48.140 00:35:48.150 catalytic reduction and that is a way of
00:35:52.490 00:35:52.500 controlling emissions and and a lot of
00:35:55.010 00:35:55.020 new I think it's like the audio three or
00:35:58.490 00:35:58.500 something like that and you use ad blue
00:36:00.890 00:36:00.900 to top up the system the scr in that so
00:36:03.260 00:36:03.270 it cleans up the emissions the gas as
00:36:06.320 00:36:06.330 it's evenly exhaust it's the same thing
00:36:08.810 00:36:08.820 but on a more industrial scale
00:36:10.460 00:36:10.470 and what we end up with really is
00:36:12.530 00:36:12.540 instead of having a standard
00:36:14.800 00:36:14.810 NOx level and this is measured at 5% o2
00:36:18.710 00:36:18.720 which is very important figure and
00:36:20.830 00:36:20.840 instead of it being 500 milligrams per
00:36:23.420 00:36:23.430 normal meter cubed with an integrated
00:36:26.540 00:36:26.550 catalyst it is at a standard of about
00:36:28.340 00:36:28.350 250 with a low NOx catalyst which we can
00:36:32.960 00:36:32.970 build into the CHP we can get it to 50
00:36:35.240 00:36:35.250 milligrams but selective catalytic
00:36:37.130 00:36:37.140 reduction will bring it down to almost
00:36:39.140 00:36:39.150 nothing
00:36:40.220 00:36:40.230 10 milligrams so it's a very very
00:36:44.240 00:36:44.250 interesting system however it does have
00:36:47.420 00:36:47.430 an additional capital cost and an
00:36:50.330 00:36:50.340 ongoing operational cost and it's a it's
00:36:54.230 00:36:54.240 a chemical reaction where AdBlue or urea
00:36:57.220 00:36:57.230 removes the nasty particles and then you
00:37:01.520 00:37:01.530 have to replenish that consumable so the
00:37:04.850 00:37:04.860 reason I'm saying that is that it does
00:37:07.370 00:37:07.380 have a lot of benefits in in the in the
00:37:10.790 00:37:10.800 atmosphere however it's almost a bit of
00:37:13.670 00:37:13.680 a sledgehammer approach that the Mayor
00:37:16.640 00:37:16.650 of London has taken if there could be
00:37:18.650 00:37:18.660 better ways of doing this okay so it's
00:37:21.710 00:37:21.720 just something to watch out for and
00:37:23.000 00:37:23.010 maybe some people have experience of
00:37:25.010 00:37:25.020 this already but I haven't seen much of
00:37:27.860 00:37:27.870 it myself in Ireland but it's it's
00:37:31.340 00:37:31.350 predominant in London the London does
00:37:34.040 00:37:34.050 have a pretty bad atmosphere so maybe
00:37:38.360 00:37:38.370 that's the reason okay so now look at it
00:37:43.310 00:37:43.320 in a different angle I'm gonna look at
00:37:44.690 00:37:44.700 the CHP economics and this is really why
00:37:47.720 00:37:47.730 my company has been in business for 35
00:37:49.970 00:37:49.980 years and it's it's more to do with how
00:37:53.090 00:37:53.100 CHP can have a real return on investment
00:37:55.880 00:37:55.890 for a client and how that can be
00:37:58.580 00:37:58.590 creative because we've talked about the
00:38:00.320 00:38:00.330 energy costs and the carbon footprint
00:38:02.990 00:38:03.000 savings but actually there's real return
00:38:05.090 00:38:05.100 on
00:38:05.580 00:38:05.590 investment here that we can have - we
00:38:09.510 00:38:09.520 build up models and we we serve a site
00:38:12.330 00:38:12.340 before CHP is brought there we will look
00:38:16.680 00:38:16.690 into all the variables that will add up
00:38:20.490 00:38:20.500 to a good site and identify any things
00:38:22.290 00:38:22.300 that may or may not suit the main ones
00:38:24.600 00:38:24.610 here our energy demand profile so you'd
00:38:26.280 00:38:26.290 all be well aware of what that is
00:38:27.620 00:38:27.630 looking at it on a thermal point of view
00:38:31.070 00:38:31.080 weekly monthly data half hourly meter
00:38:34.110 00:38:34.120 reading day there's gold that that's
00:38:35.880 00:38:35.890 what we really want to see so then we
00:38:37.290 00:38:37.300 can we kind of confidence in what we're
00:38:39.360 00:38:39.370 looking at so it's all about the data
00:38:40.500 00:38:40.510 with the man profiles so we do that for
00:38:42.750 00:38:42.760 he do that for electricity and we may do
00:38:45.420 00:38:45.430 it further things as well if it's
00:38:46.590 00:38:46.600 trigeneration
00:38:47.400 00:38:47.410 so we'll take that all in and plug it
00:38:49.680 00:38:49.690 into our modeling system spark spread
00:38:52.170 00:38:52.180 and I'm sure you all know what sparks
00:38:54.210 00:38:54.220 part is but further people that may not
00:38:56.070 00:38:56.080 spark spread is the difference between
00:38:57.570 00:38:57.580 the cost of gas and the cost of
00:38:59.220 00:38:59.230 electricity okay so if it's in this
00:39:02.280 00:39:02.290 example we're going to do it's a 2.5
00:39:04.350 00:39:04.360 cent for natural gas and let's say a 10
00:39:07.110 00:39:07.120 cent for electricity so the specs right
00:39:09.630 00:39:09.640 there is 4 to 1 or 7.5 differential and
00:39:14.640 00:39:14.650 that's the value of CHP put gas in
00:39:17.840 00:39:17.850 there's your value and you've
00:39:20.760 00:39:20.770 electricity worth that amount oh that's
00:39:23.310 00:39:23.320 what is here to be has been such a good
00:39:25.470 00:39:25.480 business for us but we need to multiply
00:39:28.470 00:39:28.480 that by a lot more variables as well so
00:39:30.510 00:39:30.520 looking at the operation though is there
00:39:32.400 00:39:32.410 we talk in general to say over 4,000
00:39:35.910 00:39:35.920 overs per annum ever owning a CHP like
00:39:38.550 00:39:38.560 that is where it starts to become
00:39:40.110 00:39:40.120 cost-effective and that's when it gives
00:39:42.420 00:39:42.430 a real return on investment you can run
00:39:45.240 00:39:45.250 this here HP for anything less than that
00:39:46.560 00:39:46.570 or anything greater than that but about
00:39:49.620 00:39:49.630 $4,000 is is a kind of a good starting
00:39:52.410 00:39:52.420 point if you're looking to make a return
00:39:53.730 00:39:53.740 and these are the headline variables
00:39:57.750 00:39:57.760 that we plug into our model and what I'm
00:39:59.640 00:39:59.650 going to do now is just run through an
00:40:01.170 00:40:01.180 example where we pick an engine we run
00:40:03.720 00:40:03.730 it for an hour we see what it cost to
00:40:05.580 00:40:05.590 run it I will see what's the value we
00:40:07.320 00:40:07.330 get over on the other side ok so the
00:40:09.900 00:40:09.910 engine we're picking here is the 230
00:40:12.030 00:40:12.040 kilowatt electric bills here tree and as
00:40:14.010 00:40:14.020 you know with C HP's we're always
00:40:16.410 00:40:16.420 talking electrical when we want
00:40:17.940 00:40:17.950 we named him so 2:30 is 230 kilowatts of
00:40:20.910 00:40:20.920 electricity and here's a snapshot of the
00:40:23.069 00:40:23.079 data sheet we get 357 kilowatts of
00:40:26.790 00:40:26.800 thermal energy we could see the fuel
00:40:29.640 00:40:29.650 input and we could see its net and gross
00:40:31.920 00:40:31.930 values as well all right so we're going
00:40:34.290 00:40:34.300 to use that information and plug it into
00:40:36.569 00:40:36.579 our model so first of all we're going to
00:40:39.780 00:40:39.790 look at the running costs so just to
00:40:41.609 00:40:41.619 turn on the engine for one hour what's
00:40:43.319 00:40:43.329 it gonna cost us okay
00:40:45.140 00:40:45.150 well it's going to cost us the gaps in
00:40:47.760 00:40:47.770 the first place so first 716 kilowatts
00:40:51.390 00:40:51.400 at 2.5 cent per kilowatt it's about 18
00:40:54.990 00:40:55.000 euro yeah and if we look at the own M
00:40:58.589 00:40:58.599 here this is a this is a figure we work
00:41:01.230 00:41:01.240 backwards to get so we looked at what M
00:41:03.810 00:41:03.820 is price per annum R over a 5-year plan
00:41:06.359 00:41:06.369 so we divided it by five years you know
00:41:09.480 00:41:09.490 I broke it down per hour how to came out
00:41:11.940 00:41:11.950 as 3 or an hour we can also put I could
00:41:15.120 00:41:15.130 have put in there one year or an hour
00:41:16.460 00:41:16.470 but that would be misleading so I picked
00:41:19.890 00:41:19.900 3 as the more expensive operation of
00:41:22.589 00:41:22.599 maintenance to give you guys a good
00:41:25.460 00:41:25.470 ballpark figure okay we don't price per
00:41:28.440 00:41:28.450 hour so
00:41:43.150 00:41:43.160 so it's that the projector has just gone
00:41:49.400 00:41:49.410 into a standby mode that's handy anybody
00:41:55.490 00:41:55.500 any questions anybody know to fix a
00:41:59.420 00:41:59.430 projector exactly
00:42:12.950 00:42:12.960 that kind of price is three or an hour
00:42:17.900 00:42:17.910 would be that kind of larger expense
00:42:21.560 00:42:21.570 that would build in the major overhaul
00:42:24.320 00:42:24.330 at sixty thousand dollars is where we
00:42:26.510 00:42:26.520 would where we would say usually it
00:42:40.220 00:42:40.230 depends on how its maintained yeah and
00:42:43.160 00:42:43.170 that would be covered in that so that
00:42:44.690 00:42:44.700 kind of price would cover all parts all
00:42:47.300 00:42:47.310 labor and I know there would be levels
00:42:49.490 00:42:49.500 of service that know will be agreed
00:42:56.290 00:42:56.300 partly but not a full sinking fund it's
00:42:58.880 00:42:58.890 not happy it's not having a separate
00:43:00.620 00:43:00.630 account or something but all
00:43:01.880 00:43:01.890 responsibility for availability would be
00:43:04.550 00:43:04.560 on us yeah good question thank you
00:43:17.960 00:43:17.970 they're the interesting thing about that
00:43:21.090 00:43:21.100 is that there's no one answer I can give
00:43:22.620 00:43:22.630 you because it all depends on how that
00:43:24.240 00:43:24.250 and box was maintained so if the
00:43:27.990 00:43:28.000 generator was well maintained and the
00:43:29.490 00:43:29.500 pumps and everything and if you get to
00:43:31.470 00:43:31.480 that time so you can imagine all the
00:43:33.000 00:43:33.010 components are running running some of
00:43:34.740 00:43:34.750 them will have a lifetime of two three
00:43:36.390 00:43:36.400 years and they'll be replaced or if
00:43:38.760 00:43:38.770 they're not they can have knock-on
00:43:40.290 00:43:40.300 effects so it's the combination of the
00:43:43.050 00:43:43.060 different technologies that are
00:43:45.300 00:43:45.310 maintained you know but you could just
00:43:49.410 00:43:49.420 have a situation where it's just new
00:43:50.940 00:43:50.950 heads
00:44:04.089 00:44:04.099 yes we would use the the software and we
00:44:08.319 00:44:08.329 have 200 sensor points on our engines to
00:44:12.219 00:44:12.229 give data to show what's happening live
00:44:14.880 00:44:14.890 and that's that's visible to the to the
00:44:18.339 00:44:18.349 client or consultant whoever is managing
00:44:20.890 00:44:20.900 that and they're good questions because
00:44:25.539 00:44:25.549 CHP operational maintenance is almost a
00:44:30.219 00:44:30.229 hidden cost that some people don't know
00:44:33.099 00:44:33.109 about until they see the CHP on their
00:44:35.799 00:44:35.809 site and and it's a big problem because
00:44:39.009 00:44:39.019 people think well gee that's very
00:44:40.660 00:44:40.670 expensive it is very expensive
00:44:42.009 00:44:42.019 maintenance if you if you multiply 3
00:44:44.499 00:44:44.509 euro by hello if you multiply 3 year-old
00:44:49.839 00:44:49.849 by $4,000 you see straightaway the scale
00:44:53.160 00:44:53.170 this is not profit hearing this is
00:44:56.529 00:44:56.539 actually replacement apparents getting
00:44:58.749 00:44:58.759 people to say and came for people that
00:45:01.660 00:45:01.670 are skilled in gas technology mechanical
00:45:04.239 00:45:04.249 and electrical so it is about to be
00:45:08.829 00:45:08.839 funny constantly because people look at
00:45:12.400 00:45:12.410 this here to be like a boiler
00:45:23.280 00:45:23.290 you could almost be painting the same
00:45:25.359 00:45:25.369 again sorry about that
00:45:40.780 00:45:40.790 projector decided to turn itself off
00:45:42.370 00:45:42.380 that's handy thanks for saving me is it
00:45:47.410 00:45:47.420 working okay my question was what
00:45:51.880 00:45:51.890 percentage of the overall cost to the
00:45:54.339 00:45:54.349 O&M makeup that's posted initially
00:45:59.440 00:45:59.450 capital expenditure and you and your
00:46:01.059 00:46:01.069 answer was could be the same so it could
00:46:03.040 00:46:03.050 be 50/50 yeah it could be 50/50 thank
00:46:05.440 00:46:05.450 you
00:46:05.710 00:46:05.720 depending on the size of the engine and
00:46:07.420 00:46:07.430 yep and and every engine if you want to
00:46:12.940 00:46:12.950 think about it in an example are like
00:46:16.390 00:46:16.400 cars some of the engines the maintenance
00:46:19.480 00:46:19.490 would be pretty straightforward and not
00:46:21.099 00:46:21.109 a great cost but some of the more
00:46:22.960 00:46:22.970 complicated engines when they're
00:46:24.400 00:46:24.410 turbocharged and kind of a lot more
00:46:26.819 00:46:26.829 ancillary equipment necessary to run it
00:46:29.620 00:46:29.630 that's when it starts to get more
00:46:31.450 00:46:31.460 expensive okay I think we filled out
00:46:36.400 00:46:36.410 there nicely didn't we thanks guys
00:46:39.000 00:46:39.010 so 1790 per hour would be the cost of
00:46:45.309 00:46:45.319 the fuel input the operational
00:46:48.700 00:46:48.710 maintenance would be three euros let's
00:46:50.620 00:46:50.630 use that and that give us a
00:46:52.240 00:46:52.250 twenty-one-year-old just to turn on this
00:46:54.010 00:46:54.020 engine just for one or so you're not
00:46:55.870 00:46:55.880 going to turn it on for any good or any
00:46:57.490 00:46:57.500 reason it needs to be adding real value
00:47:00.160 00:47:00.170 to the site if we look at the savings
00:47:02.109 00:47:02.119 here and the generation here of 229
00:47:05.470 00:47:05.480 kilowatts of electricity at $0.10 per
00:47:07.960 00:47:07.970 kilowatt this 23 euro will set and if we
00:47:13.630 00:47:13.640 wanted to run a boiler on this site that
00:47:16.930 00:47:16.940 was 80% efficient so I've given a lower
00:47:18.910 00:47:18.920 figure here not to not to overrate
00:47:20.710 00:47:20.720 things and that uses gas as well and
00:47:22.870 00:47:22.880 that output was 357 kilowatts of thermal
00:47:25.839 00:47:25.849 energy it would cost you around 11 euro
00:47:28.690 00:47:28.700 or to run that boiler as well
00:47:30.690 00:47:30.700 so the overly energy-saving of this one
00:47:34.260 00:47:34.270 CHP on-site saving you buying
00:47:37.260 00:47:37.270 electricity and said if you're running a
00:47:38.790 00:47:38.800 boiler is about 34 euros okay so taking
00:47:42.720 00:47:42.730 one from the other you could see
00:47:43.800 00:47:43.810 straightaway there
00:47:44.700 00:47:44.710 there's a 13 euro net saving and if we
00:47:48.360 00:47:48.370 multiply that by seven thousand eight
00:47:49.980 00:47:49.990 hundred eighty four we get one hundred
00:47:52.530 00:47:52.540 and three thousand and I removed all of
00:47:55.470 00:47:55.480 the Euro signs except on this slide I'm
00:47:57.540 00:47:57.550 really annoyed with myself
00:47:58.710 00:47:58.720 are the pound signs yes there would be
00:48:08.070 00:48:08.080 so look at it now if we take away that
00:48:10.320 00:48:10.330 11 euro it comes out of 23 so we
00:48:14.850 00:48:14.860 wouldn't put it in in the first place
00:48:16.020 00:48:16.030 the the the Euro or the yeah sorry yeah
00:48:22.470 00:48:22.480 I absolutely agree with you
00:48:29.030 00:48:29.040 you're better off playing in the the
00:48:30.960 00:48:30.970 power yep the like CHP becomes a good
00:48:38.490 00:48:38.500 investment when you use the heat it's
00:48:41.220 00:48:41.230 just okay using the electricity when you
00:48:44.820 00:48:44.830 add in the heat it's a real it's a real
00:48:46.860 00:48:46.870 saver absolutely agree with you
00:49:21.880 00:49:21.890 when you add every single day of the
00:49:28.610 00:49:28.620 year yeah absolutely yep
00:50:07.700 00:50:07.710 I take your point I think you're totally
00:50:09.500 00:50:09.510 right I should have started this by
00:50:12.800 00:50:12.810 saying this is a simple calculation if I
00:50:18.670 00:50:18.680 know sir but no I take your point on the
00:50:22.010 00:50:22.020 the the debate about 45,000 hours to
00:50:25.730 00:50:25.740 60,000 that's purely dependent on the
00:50:28.220 00:50:28.230 technology being used and who's
00:50:30.080 00:50:30.090 maintaining it there are two big things
00:50:32.210 00:50:32.220 that need to be looked at but definitely
00:50:35.510 00:50:35.520 take your points there the the 7000
00:50:39.290 00:50:39.300 hours just to let you know 7w a 4 is a
00:50:42.640 00:50:42.650 365 days of the year 24 hours a day by
00:50:46.490 00:50:46.500 90% so that takes out 10% of time for
00:50:50.000 00:50:50.010 the O&M as well yeah so that does allow
00:50:53.870 00:50:53.880 for that which is you know the OM really
00:50:56.150 00:50:56.160 cost you cost you in cash the costume
00:50:58.220 00:50:58.230 time as well the availability and that's
00:51:00.530 00:51:00.540 what people don't realize over the
00:51:02.090 00:51:02.100 lifetime 10% of its life it will be
00:51:04.490 00:51:04.500 stopped and down for maintenance and
00:51:06.730 00:51:06.740 people may query data why is it always
00:51:09.200 00:51:09.210 down well it's not it's actually
00:51:10.990 00:51:11.000 preventative maintenance 10% at a time
00:51:13.700 00:51:13.710 as you know time moves fast but thank
00:51:17.000 00:51:17.010 you and and actually my next few slides
00:51:20.900 00:51:20.910 might might add to this as well because
00:51:23.780 00:51:23.790 this is a very simple calculation we're
00:51:26.000 00:51:26.010 doing here in a very simple payback
00:51:27.530 00:51:27.540 this was a hospital in the UK where they
00:51:29.690 00:51:29.700 already had a 230 kilowatt electrical
00:51:32.060 00:51:32.070 we installed that was removed and a new
00:51:34.640 00:51:34.650 one was put in so we know exactly what
00:51:36.650 00:51:36.660 what was needed here the installation
00:51:39.410 00:51:39.420 costs were very low you could see here
00:51:40.850 00:51:40.860 one hundred and sixty five thousand so
00:51:42.920 00:51:42.930 the payback in this for the NHS was
00:51:45.260 00:51:45.270 fantastic and actually in today's world
00:51:48.380 00:51:48.390 they're always looking for a payback
00:51:49.430 00:51:49.440 over both three years and less so we
00:51:52.190 00:51:52.200 were fighting all the time to keep that
00:51:54.110 00:51:54.120 availability up I said there are ten
00:51:56.240 00:51:56.250 percent of the time it's done well we're
00:51:58.070 00:51:58.080 getting a push no from ninety two
00:52:00.050 00:52:00.060 percent availability I'm greater than
00:52:01.910 00:52:01.920 that so it's a constant battle between
00:52:04.030 00:52:04.040 early preventative maintenance like you
00:52:07.490 00:52:07.500 mentioned there earlier and identifying
00:52:09.590 00:52:09.600 things before they happen and then
00:52:11.660 00:52:11.670 making sure nothing catastrophic happens
00:52:13.640 00:52:13.650 as well so that kind of 2.2 year payback
00:52:16.670 00:52:16.680 is then that kind of perfect scenario in
00:52:18.890 00:52:18.900 this simple calculation but we're really
00:52:21.080 00:52:21.090 needs to be analyzed is early days and
00:52:24.020 00:52:24.030 and speaking with your engineers tonight
00:52:26.720 00:52:26.730 is a good way of illustrating that early
00:52:29.390 00:52:29.400 design and early feedback into this
00:52:32.260 00:52:32.270 sorry hmm so instead of that 2.2 years
00:52:40.310 00:52:40.320 payback which is in the best case
00:52:42.410 00:52:42.420 scenario we end up with something like
00:52:44.480 00:52:44.490 at three point nine which is that red
00:52:48.560 00:52:48.570 circle there and that's if some one of
00:52:51.530 00:52:51.540 the variables changed so gas price gas
00:52:53.780 00:52:53.790 price went up from two point five to
00:52:55.880 00:52:55.890 four we've no control over that
00:52:57.620 00:52:57.630 yeah that changes the economics trade
00:52:59.960 00:52:59.970 away payback of six years refers to I
00:53:04.520 00:53:04.530 think when somebody said what happens if
00:53:05.750 00:53:05.760 we don't use the heat so if we only use
00:53:07.790 00:53:07.800 50 percent to the heat here it pushes
00:53:11.000 00:53:11.010 out to pay back straightaway almost
00:53:13.250 00:53:13.260 doubles as you could say so the heat is
00:53:15.890 00:53:15.900 so important that it needs to be used
00:53:17.660 00:53:17.670 and then finally this probably ties into
00:53:20.330 00:53:20.340 what you were saying the five thousand
00:53:22.160 00:53:22.170 hours so instead of seven thousand eight
00:53:26.150 00:53:26.160 hundred eighty-four 5585 is about 17
00:53:29.510 00:53:29.520 hours a day and in the UK that's what we
00:53:31.820 00:53:31.830 use it's to do with the day and night
00:53:35.000 00:53:35.010 time tariffs I think that's that split
00:53:36.860 00:53:36.870 for the 17 hours so this is more like
00:53:39.170 00:53:39.180 that and this is actually this 5000
00:53:41.240 00:53:41.250 hours is probably every other situation
00:53:44.210 00:53:44.220 that isn't a 24 hour cyst
00:53:45.800 00:53:45.810 so hospitals data centers and a few more
00:53:50.000 00:53:50.010 24 hours a day everything else starts at
00:53:53.120 00:53:53.130 this kind of point air about 5,000 hours
00:53:55.540 00:53:55.550 so so you need to be careful at the
00:54:00.230 00:54:00.240 feasibility stage that's the point here
00:54:02.300 00:54:02.310 really so it is relatively simple to get
00:54:06.230 00:54:06.240 your head around this but they get into
00:54:07.730 00:54:07.740 the fine detail is a bit more prolonged
00:54:12.040 00:54:12.050 okay Who am I do if I tell you actually
00:54:25.030 00:54:25.040 so um just can do a little bit about low
00:54:28.550 00:54:28.560 profile it so it's just how how do we
00:54:30.650 00:54:30.660 sell user CAHPS what's the kind of best
00:54:32.600 00:54:32.610 way to look at it I sit on this is a
00:54:36.080 00:54:36.090 district 18 CHP committee and there's
00:54:38.300 00:54:38.310 very loose guidelines on this so what
00:54:41.390 00:54:41.400 we've done on this satisfies is just to
00:54:43.160 00:54:43.170 give an example of what we see in
00:54:44.330 00:54:44.340 America and how people are doing it and
00:54:47.410 00:54:47.420 what we do and we we call this method
00:54:50.450 00:54:50.460 one here is based little thermal
00:54:54.160 00:54:54.170 straightforward isn't it
00:54:56.410 00:54:56.420 we size this here to be small and nimble
00:54:59.680 00:54:59.690 so it satisfies the base load all year
00:55:02.510 00:55:02.520 long it keeps it running and all the
00:55:05.990 00:55:06.000 heat is used on site when we have P key
00:55:10.940 00:55:10.950 times of years you know the the ones
00:55:12.860 00:55:12.870 like no the boilers kick in and boilers
00:55:17.270 00:55:17.280 are designed to to modulator and come on
00:55:19.490 00:55:19.500 and off so it's the best way to use them
00:55:21.440 00:55:21.450 so on a on a monthly view this is how we
00:55:24.740 00:55:24.750 would hope we would say is the CHP
00:55:27.140 00:55:27.150 pretty straightforward I'm sure you
00:55:29.030 00:55:29.040 understand um
00:55:31.420 00:55:31.430 method two it's that time where there
00:55:36.230 00:55:36.240 might be a little bit of a conflict
00:55:37.520 00:55:37.530 between maybe planning applications and
00:55:40.970 00:55:40.980 Part L driving carbon and carbon savings
00:55:44.360 00:55:44.370 on the site so people want the larger
00:55:46.280 00:55:46.290 CHP with a larger thermal output so
00:55:48.830 00:55:48.840 instead of it being risk averse and at
00:55:51.890 00:55:51.900 method 1 here people tend to start
00:55:53.810 00:55:53.820 design in a larger CHP to to maximize
00:55:56.870 00:55:56.880 the answer
00:55:58.130 00:55:58.140 value which is understandable but the
00:56:01.099 00:56:01.109 problem occurs then in the summer time
00:56:02.720 00:56:02.730 when when all the heat is not utilized
00:56:05.769 00:56:05.779 so some people if this was on a daily
00:56:10.430 00:56:10.440 basis you could use a thermistor and a
00:56:12.740 00:56:12.750 thermistor is always a good idea with
00:56:14.359 00:56:14.369 the CHP but on a monthly basis this
00:56:18.109 00:56:18.119 causes problems some answers to this are
00:56:20.900 00:56:20.910 to use a heat trim or heat rejection
00:56:22.789 00:56:22.799 radiators and there is an Essie I would
00:56:28.640 00:56:28.650 show that you can utilize that for a
00:56:30.650 00:56:30.660 portion of the year as long as the rest
00:56:32.809 00:56:32.819 of the year was still with him is that
00:56:35.150 00:56:35.160 seventy seventy-five percent so this
00:56:38.210 00:56:38.220 shaded area was no greater than 25% of
00:56:40.789 00:56:40.799 the total and it still qualifies for
00:56:43.750 00:56:43.760 high-efficiency CHP but ideally you know
00:56:47.240 00:56:47.250 you don't want that so so this is this
00:56:50.359 00:56:50.369 is the hard design time when people need
00:56:51.950 00:56:51.960 to pick a point between those two and be
00:56:54.529 00:56:54.539 be happy but on your site but also the
00:56:56.930 00:56:56.940 client has something to say about that
00:56:58.160 00:56:58.170 to be learnt there because they may want
00:57:00.559 00:57:00.569 valuable electricity and if you can
00:57:03.289 00:57:03.299 imagine another chart here they might
00:57:05.990 00:57:06.000 want that electricity on site and they
00:57:07.640 00:57:07.650 might be willing to dump heat and that's
00:57:10.190 00:57:10.200 a conversation that's a commercial
00:57:11.480 00:57:11.490 conversation that needs to be had okay
00:57:14.539 00:57:14.549 so that's made it to thermal and now
00:57:16.249 00:57:16.259 we're going to look at electrical okay
00:57:18.890 00:57:18.900 and sorry one more thermal is where we
00:57:22.700 00:57:22.710 see modulation happening and people talk
00:57:26.630 00:57:26.640 about thermal modulation
00:57:28.039 00:57:28.049 I'm mechanical I can't of thought
00:57:31.069 00:57:31.079 modulation was more of an electrical
00:57:32.809 00:57:32.819 situation where you have instant
00:57:34.490 00:57:34.500 modulation probably with a resistor you
00:57:37.009 00:57:37.019 know so what we see here is people
00:57:39.650 00:57:39.660 referring to low tracking of the thermal
00:57:41.990 00:57:42.000 Lord and and actually what's really
00:57:43.700 00:57:43.710 happening here and that heat is going
00:57:46.190 00:57:46.200 into a thermistor usually or being
00:57:48.170 00:57:48.180 dissipated some other way and the CHP
00:57:50.450 00:57:50.460 will ramp down it's an engine and all
00:57:52.279 00:57:52.289 engines can can modulate in a certain
00:57:54.950 00:57:54.960 fashion but he does not instantly
00:57:56.930 00:57:56.940 evaporate it's still in the system it's
00:57:59.240 00:57:59.250 still in the engine and if it doesn't
00:58:00.799 00:58:00.809 get away that could cause problems so
00:58:03.829 00:58:03.839 this is a kind of a situation we
00:58:05.509 00:58:05.519 wouldn't really you know promote because
00:58:09.970 00:58:09.980 we
00:58:11.069 00:58:11.079 can have this in her back pocket and if
00:58:12.660 00:58:12.670 we're going to design a smaller CHP at a
00:58:15.900 00:58:15.910 lower capital cost and let's say this
00:58:19.140 00:58:19.150 year there was even less thermal
00:58:21.239 00:58:21.249 requirement well then the CHP can
00:58:23.279 00:58:23.289 modulate it down here so we keep that as
00:58:25.229 00:58:25.239 a back-up plan
00:58:26.029 00:58:26.039 yeah because if we end up with the CHP
00:58:29.009 00:58:29.019 here and and if it cuts out what does he
00:58:32.670 00:58:32.680 H people have to cool down before it can
00:58:34.799 00:58:34.809 come back on again and that's where
00:58:36.749 00:58:36.759 people have fallen into a trap if they
00:58:38.279 00:58:38.289 if they expect the CHP to the map like a
00:58:41.190 00:58:41.200 boiler would okay
00:59:00.970 00:59:00.980 well they see the summers you've got
00:59:04.120 00:59:04.130 small heating oil pack from airplanes in
00:59:08.300 00:59:08.310 the mornings
00:59:15.710 00:59:15.720 and thermally it's well electrically
00:59:20.249 00:59:20.259 it's a it's 50% it will modulate
00:59:22.620 00:59:22.630 electrically 50% but for every 10
00:59:27.079 00:59:27.089 percent there it equates to about one
00:59:29.730 00:59:29.740 degree Celsius in your actual your your
00:59:32.579 00:59:32.589 life temperatures so if you think about
00:59:35.489 00:59:35.499 that that's only five degrees you've got
00:59:37.499 00:59:37.509 the play of it on a phone returned
00:59:38.700 00:59:38.710 before the engine starts to not be able
00:59:42.599 00:59:42.609 to deal with the heat that it is feeding
00:59:45.420 00:59:45.430 back from the site I then tried to feed
00:59:48.299 00:59:48.309 it out yeah so it is a it is a funny one
00:59:53.670 00:59:53.680 because if we're talking about
00:59:55.349 00:59:55.359 electrically modulation is instantaneous
00:59:58.319 00:59:58.329 but thermally you've got this heat like
01:00:00.089 01:00:00.099 this build up that needs to be
01:00:01.440 01:00:01.450 dissipated you know if you've got a huge
01:00:05.099 01:00:05.109 thermistor and if you've done the
01:00:07.019 01:00:07.029 calculations right or if you've got a
01:00:08.279 01:00:08.289 huge heat network there's a big place to
01:00:11.730 01:00:11.740 dump heat
01:00:19.800 01:00:19.810 yes so this this is the trap that that
01:00:31.420 01:00:31.430 we see in UK all the time and to be to
01:00:34.480 01:00:34.490 be risk averse you're admitted one to be
01:00:39.630 01:00:39.640 zero carbon and and you know taking all
01:00:42.700 01:00:42.710 the boxes you're admitted to and that's
01:00:45.130 01:00:45.140 what a problem happens and it's it's
01:00:48.160 01:00:48.170 it's it's a kind of - catch-22 really
01:00:51.910 01:00:51.920 isn't it because a lot of time these
01:00:55.110 01:00:55.120 calculations are done a planning stages
01:00:57.250 01:00:57.260 for planning permission and there's no
01:00:59.920 01:00:59.930 full mechanical or electrical designed
01:01:01.660 01:01:01.670 on yet so how is an early stage
01:01:05.590 01:01:05.600 feasibility going to know what the full
01:01:07.870 01:01:07.880 daily breakdown is going to be like you
01:01:10.600 01:01:10.610 know in detail oh yeah absolutely
01:01:34.890 01:01:34.900 absolutely
01:01:40.200 01:01:40.210 there is those really those really up in
01:01:47.650 01:01:47.660 the information out there from all
01:01:50.440 01:01:50.450 associations that but people haven't
01:01:52.870 01:01:52.880 gone into the detail to publish that you
01:01:55.240 01:01:55.250 know you know there's that a.m. 12 from
01:01:58.180 01:01:58.190 sibs II am 11 sorry from Sydney and
01:02:01.260 01:02:01.270 that's a good read but it doesn't it
01:02:03.820 01:02:03.830 doesn't get into that detail enough for
01:02:05.920 01:02:05.930 me and and what you're saying is dead
01:02:07.780 01:02:07.790 right you know yeah I'm gonna go on to
01:02:12.460 01:02:12.470 the kind of to the miniscule timing as
01:02:16.120 01:02:16.130 well and now to look at the electrical
01:02:19.240 01:02:19.250 side of things again a base load is
01:02:23.170 01:02:23.180 where we want to be everything in an
01:02:25.810 01:02:25.820 orange here is what the so requires
01:02:29.539 01:02:29.549 on site and the blue here is bought in
01:02:32.120 01:02:32.130 from the grid so the CHP is a flat line
01:02:34.009 01:02:34.019 output again and everything will be
01:02:35.929 01:02:35.939 consumed again on an annual basis okay
01:02:40.489 01:02:40.499 and that's what you want to have you
01:02:41.659 01:02:41.669 want to have a CHP that feeds your size
01:02:44.059 01:02:44.069 and it's not really there to do anything
01:02:46.459 01:02:46.469 else
01:02:47.049 01:02:47.059 however when things are oversized the
01:02:51.289 01:02:51.299 charity is flipped
01:02:52.219 01:02:52.229 CHP output is up here and this is what
01:02:56.809 01:02:56.819 the site is using and everything blue is
01:02:59.649 01:02:59.659 referred to as exporting I look to the
01:03:04.339 01:03:04.349 selu report there and there's only 13
01:03:06.620 01:03:06.630 sites in Ireland exporting at the moment
01:03:09.469 01:03:09.479 and I think you know if your site is
01:03:11.179 01:03:11.189 exporting because you set up an
01:03:12.979 01:03:12.989 agreement you know I'm living in the UK
01:03:15.799 01:03:15.809 and on and all about export agreements
01:03:17.749 01:03:17.759 with all this breaks a talk you know
01:03:20.029 01:03:20.039 and they're not easy to set up so if
01:03:23.089 01:03:23.099 people think that they're going to
01:03:24.439 01:03:24.449 export electricity I think they need to
01:03:27.169 01:03:27.179 check it again because this side refer
01:03:29.419 01:03:29.429 to more spilling just spilling onto the
01:03:31.549 01:03:31.559 grid and actually you need to get the
01:03:33.769 01:03:33.779 district network operator ESB I assume
01:03:36.679 01:03:36.689 at the CERN often at and allow you to
01:03:38.809 01:03:38.819 spill onto the grid maybe people are
01:03:40.819 01:03:40.829 confusing that with setting up an export
01:03:42.709 01:03:42.719 agreement there are two very different
01:03:44.719 01:03:44.729 things there so you always want to use
01:03:47.059 01:03:47.069 all the electricity on site and you're
01:03:49.189 01:03:49.199 going to use that let's say it's $0.10
01:03:51.949 01:03:51.959 worked on site I'm sure it's a lot more
01:03:54.739 01:03:54.749 than that actually but you want to use
01:03:56.870 01:03:56.880 that on your site all day and all night
01:03:58.599 01:03:58.609 so now that you know everything okay
01:04:02.239 01:04:02.249 we're gonna go into the detail and you
01:04:04.039 01:04:04.049 have to be quiet no this time don't
01:04:06.169 01:04:06.179 spoil it for the rest of them the devil
01:04:10.879 01:04:10.889 is in the detail here so on a daily
01:04:12.379 01:04:12.389 basis okay this is a nursing home okay
01:04:16.069 01:04:16.079 and we've got the electrical demand here
01:04:18.649 01:04:18.659 on the left and the thermal demand here
01:04:20.239 01:04:20.249 you could see there everybody's asleep
01:04:22.039 01:04:22.049 here until about 7:00 a.m. big spike
01:04:24.289 01:04:24.299 here big spike in the evening
01:04:25.819 01:04:25.829 I think that's TV time there are cups of
01:04:28.999 01:04:29.009 teas and Matlock is on you know and then
01:04:31.609 01:04:31.619 in the end the electrical side of things
01:04:33.499 01:04:33.509 it's the same year 7:00 a.m. you can see
01:04:35.989 01:04:35.999 these spikes so my question to you guys
01:04:37.969 01:04:37.979 is if we can put in the CHP here
01:04:42.260 01:04:42.270 and if it does everything that the CHP
01:04:44.270 01:04:44.280 should what size of CHP should we put in
01:04:47.110 01:04:47.120 so to make it a bit easier and because
01:04:49.910 01:04:49.920 I've got four minutes left I've added
01:04:51.710 01:04:51.720 these lines as well to sure
01:04:53.930 01:04:53.940 what kind of a so DC HP's you could put
01:04:55.850 01:04:55.860 in here so I don't know how we're gonna
01:04:59.360 01:04:59.370 get you all you've been all so talkative
01:05:00.970 01:05:00.980 don't show it all at once you know but
01:05:03.620 01:05:03.630 does anybody want to show an electrical
01:05:05.390 01:05:05.400 number here that would pan across and I
01:05:07.760 01:05:07.770 remember you know a 25 kilowatt CHP here
01:05:11.060 01:05:11.070 is gonna pull out about you know over 40
01:05:14.030 01:05:14.040 kilowatts of heat so who's gonna be
01:05:18.800 01:05:18.810 brave okay that's okay
01:05:24.260 01:05:24.270 it gives time though for people to
01:05:25.820 01:05:25.830 digest all the information and to
01:05:28.000 01:05:28.010 surprise me with your knowledge good man
01:05:35.900 01:05:35.910 25 down here okay we've got Annie you're
01:05:42.860 01:05:42.870 going for ten very risk-averse Tony are
01:05:44.780 01:05:44.790 10 he's 35 okay
01:05:49.780 01:05:49.790 any higher any higher bits I like this
01:05:55.250 01:05:55.260 we're getting maybe up to 50 or Sam
01:05:57.770 01:05:57.780 maybe that's the way if we had a tomato
01:06:04.700 01:06:04.710 growing greenhouses out the back as well
01:06:06.650 01:06:06.660 we could go here to couldn't really you
01:06:08.120 01:06:08.130 know good point yeah if we were sending
01:06:13.550 01:06:13.560 back to the grid to you know if this if
01:06:16.340 01:06:16.350 these guys had a kind of a capacity
01:06:18.500 01:06:18.510 market agreement pick up a tent in the
01:06:20.690 01:06:20.700 wanton you know so doesn't there's a lot
01:06:22.850 01:06:22.860 of other stuff here to think about yeah
01:06:30.460 01:06:30.470 okay well I did have a go at one time
01:06:34.060 01:06:34.070 and I showed him this and he said you
01:06:37.130 01:06:37.140 know ninety all the way and he said I
01:06:39.590 01:06:39.600 don't care I just want to listen
01:06:41.090 01:06:41.100 electricity he's costing me a fortune I
01:06:42.920 01:06:42.930 just want to you know get the
01:06:44.359 01:06:44.369 electricity paid for right and he
01:06:46.070 01:06:46.080 Dumpty's
01:06:46.580 01:06:46.590 yeah and you know what client is the
01:06:49.550 01:06:49.560 client you know but the special price
01:06:54.080 01:06:54.090 goes through the man here on the right
01:06:55.810 01:06:55.820 for the 35 so it's quite a sensible
01:07:05.390 01:07:05.400 approach here and and on a daily basis
01:07:07.640 01:07:07.650 I'd like to think of these white
01:07:09.260 01:07:09.270 inverted triangles here is where the
01:07:10.820 01:07:10.830 thermistor would be filling up and this
01:07:12.890 01:07:12.900 this block here if we kick in the CHP it
01:07:15.410 01:07:15.420 at 5:00 a.m. it started to help the site
01:07:18.760 01:07:18.770 Jesus excuse me I'm not touching it and
01:07:27.790 01:07:27.800 so the thermistor is essential on a site
01:07:30.980 01:07:30.990 like this electricity use all day and
01:07:33.170 01:07:33.180 all night
01:07:33.710 01:07:33.720 but also this is not a big capital cost
01:07:36.560 01:07:36.570 for that nursing home and that's
01:07:39.290 01:07:39.300 important too we got to think about it
01:07:40.609 01:07:40.619 as a lifetime cost yeah and what we're
01:07:44.750 01:07:44.760 trying to do really in general is reduce
01:07:46.609 01:07:46.619 utility costs right and you know you
01:07:49.849 01:07:49.859 guys know these principles from good
01:07:51.440 01:07:51.450 engineering practice anything we could
01:07:53.840 01:07:53.850 do and say to reduce the even further we
01:07:55.430 01:07:55.440 do that first then we make things more
01:07:57.830 01:07:57.840 efficient in the plant
01:07:59.740 01:07:59.750 okay so proper audits are the way to go
01:08:02.420 01:08:02.430 forward and then at the end of all that
01:08:04.490 01:08:04.500 the CHP might be an idea well we don't
01:08:08.300 01:08:08.310 want to be people putting in a CHP of
01:08:10.160 01:08:10.170 this size in that kind of you know hope
01:08:14.210 01:08:14.220 that we're a silver bullet and solving
01:08:16.970 01:08:16.980 all the energy efficiency issues you
01:08:19.070 01:08:19.080 know
01:08:19.340 01:08:19.350 CHP needs to be installed in the right
01:08:21.530 01:08:21.540 situation at the right time and knowing
01:08:25.760 01:08:25.770 that everything else has been done so
01:08:27.530 01:08:27.540 that you know lighting upgrades have
01:08:30.050 01:08:30.060 been done so that the electricity Lord
01:08:31.640 01:08:31.650 it isn't demolished two years into a
01:08:34.099 01:08:34.109 10-year agreement you know and these
01:08:36.650 01:08:36.660 things have happened in the past and
01:08:37.999 01:08:38.009 that's why CHP sometimes had been
01:08:40.010 01:08:40.020 people looked at it unusually but it for
01:08:42.079 01:08:42.089 me it's a matter of Education and what
01:08:43.880 01:08:43.890 you guys are ahead of the curve or not
01:08:46.690 01:08:46.700 my last points here really are about
01:08:49.599 01:08:49.609 metering and getting good data it's key
01:08:52.490 01:08:52.500 and it's key this is all done at early
01:08:54.320 01:08:54.330 feasibility stages yeah we need to know
01:08:56.990 01:08:57.000 what we're doing really early before we
01:08:59.480 01:08:59.490 you know do anything it's it's it's so
01:09:02.300 01:09:02.310 important because when contracts are out
01:09:05.269 01:09:05.279 there it's too late when planning
01:09:07.099 01:09:07.109 permission is done it's too late I think
01:09:12.349 01:09:12.359 that's about it take just a bit of time
01:09:16.210 01:09:16.220 so if anybody has any questions I can
01:09:19.460 01:09:19.470 take questions now and I'll be around
01:09:28.550 01:09:28.560 the corner later as well the smallest
01:09:39.710 01:09:39.720 unit you have there I think was four
01:09:42.079 01:09:42.089 kilowatts electrical what typically
01:09:44.210 01:09:44.220 would that be what sort of the size
01:09:45.620 01:09:45.630 would that be the smallest one we
01:09:47.809 01:09:47.819 actually have is 2.3 kilowatt electrical
01:09:49.880 01:09:49.890 and you mean physically yeah well what I
01:09:52.849 01:09:52.859 mean what sort of an installation is it
01:09:54.500 01:09:54.510 sort of domestic is it it's kind of a
01:09:56.840 01:09:56.850 commercial kind of so it it's a it's a
01:10:00.560 01:10:00.570 product designed for the German market
01:10:02.470 01:10:02.480 where they have much more incentives on
01:10:05.030 01:10:05.040 CHP so they actually use it domestically
01:10:07.160 01:10:07.170 but but in the UK and Ireland it would
01:10:10.070 01:10:10.080 be a bit too much for domestic you know
01:10:12.350 01:10:12.360 that's a I think it's two point three
01:10:14.510 01:10:14.520 kilowatt with a sums like five thermal
01:10:18.470 01:10:18.480 output then you know but yeah it's quite
01:10:21.980 01:10:21.990 a interesting piece of kit and it's
01:10:23.540 01:10:23.550 probably just a little bit bigger than
01:10:25.430 01:10:25.440 this print here you know
01:10:32.910 01:10:32.920 all right okay so Robert says for a
01:10:35.730 01:10:35.740 large petrol station our kind of
01:10:37.590 01:10:37.600 commercial thing like that yeah yep is
01:10:47.730 01:10:47.740 there any other questions Thanks so I'll
01:11:04.020 01:11:04.030 efficiently feel that the CHP can be
01:11:06.150 01:11:06.160 implemented in the countries where just
01:11:08.370 01:11:08.380 Walmart
01:11:10.820 01:11:10.830 probably yeah
01:11:12.480 01:11:12.490 as most of the heating which is
01:11:13.920 01:11:13.930 generated from the CHP couldn't be used
01:11:16.080 01:11:16.090 for heating because they don't need the
01:11:17.460 01:11:17.470 heating you should they wouldn't have
01:11:18.630 01:11:18.640 the heating issue yeah so where the
01:11:21.150 01:11:21.160 Texas heat can be used because that's
01:11:23.460 01:11:23.470 where because of the excess dye usage of
01:11:25.710 01:11:25.720 the heat was the making the CHP more
01:11:28.050 01:11:28.060 efficient yes
01:11:29.190 01:11:29.200 so if that is not used in the warmer
01:11:31.140 01:11:31.150 conditions how do you think that it
01:11:33.510 01:11:33.520 could be efficient in though we have
01:11:36.480 01:11:36.490 installations of Troy generation okay
01:11:39.390 01:11:39.400 where we would couple it with absorption
01:11:41.610 01:11:41.620 chilling technology so then all of that
01:11:44.430 01:11:44.440 low temperature of water can be turned
01:11:46.320 01:11:46.330 into cooling but it's at about 6 degrees
01:11:48.990 01:11:49.000 I think that might go as low as 4
01:11:50.790 01:11:50.800 degrees maybe yeah 4 degrees so it's not
01:11:54.230 01:11:54.240 don't to the lowest temperatures but but
01:11:56.850 01:11:56.860 4 degree so so we do see that but also
01:11:59.670 01:11:59.680 it depends on the the big thing with
01:12:01.260 01:12:01.270 different countries is the spark gap so
01:12:03.660 01:12:03.670 it's that cost of natural gas so the
01:12:05.670 01:12:05.680 lower the cost of natural gas and the
01:12:07.260 01:12:07.270 higher the electricity the more valuable
01:12:09.180 01:12:09.190 it is and a good example of that is
01:12:11.160 01:12:11.170 America at the moment so we opened up a
01:12:12.780 01:12:12.790 new it's gone again we opened up a new
01:12:19.760 01:12:19.770 factory and offices in America because
01:12:22.080 01:12:22.090 their spare cap was 8 to 1 so in Ireland
01:12:26.160 01:12:26.170 and the UK it's about 5 to 1 and that's
01:12:27.990 01:12:28.000 really good for every one unit in your
01:12:31.280 01:12:31.290 quadruple in that you know so it's a
01:12:36.300 01:12:36.310 spare cap you know and and so natural
01:12:39.900 01:12:39.910 gas if the natural gas is plentiful and
01:12:41.850 01:12:41.860 and it's a secure supplier are the big
01:12:43.980 01:12:43.990 things but yeah well you
01:12:45.730 01:12:45.740 use the low temperature water for you
01:12:48.280 01:12:48.290 know showers and for hot water
01:12:50.350 01:12:50.360 applications but but not for heating
01:12:52.780 01:12:52.790 that is what you're saying really yeah
01:12:54.070 01:12:54.080 okay so actually like as you said it can
01:12:58.660 01:12:58.670 be used very much in the commercial area
01:13:00.610 01:13:00.620 so it is not very feasible for the
01:13:03.880 01:13:03.890 domestic purpose right currently
01:13:06.070 01:13:06.080 domestic is a challenging market for CHP
01:13:08.440 01:13:08.450 you're right yeah because I know like
01:13:11.770 01:13:11.780 every people stay at home so I think if
01:13:14.080 01:13:14.090 he go into the homes implementing discs
01:13:16.240 01:13:16.250 and the amount of efficiency could be
01:13:18.400 01:13:18.410 greater than a commercial one right yes
01:13:22.080 01:13:22.090 yeah we domestic so small-scale domestic
01:13:27.820 01:13:27.830 CHP is probably a very very hard matter
01:13:30.630 01:13:30.640 large-scale district heating on the
01:13:33.070 01:13:33.080 other hand where electricity can be
01:13:35.080 01:13:35.090 utilized or exported happens in London
01:13:37.600 01:13:37.610 and places where you've got maybe a 2
01:13:39.640 01:13:39.650 megawatt CHP exporting its electricity
01:13:42.070 01:13:42.080 to the grid making a valuable return and
01:13:45.190 01:13:45.200 then the district heating loop fed by
01:13:47.890 01:13:47.900 the CHP so it becomes a valuable ESCO
01:13:51.670 01:13:51.680 then but but on a small scale it doesn't
01:13:56.470 01:13:56.480 really pan out that well you know so
01:13:58.720 01:13:58.730 when you are saying this I just got a
01:13:59.980 01:13:59.990 small idea so like most of the people
01:14:02.650 01:14:02.660 drive the cars to their home so if it is
01:14:04.960 01:14:04.970 a long driven so they can use the car
01:14:06.670 01:14:06.680 engine because it has it it generates
01:14:08.650 01:14:08.660 heats as were right so that heat can be
01:14:11.050 01:14:11.060 implemented can be used in eating the
01:14:13.090 01:14:13.100 home as well and that can be used a
01:14:14.620 01:14:14.630 little way off as a domestic case right
01:14:16.920 01:14:16.930 if you say so but I think your you need
01:14:22.030 01:14:22.040 to talk to mr. Tesla and a few
01:14:24.400 01:14:24.410 mechanical engineers as well maybe
01:14:25.840 01:14:25.850 there's somebody here tonight with that
01:14:27.070 01:14:27.080 will pick up on that one with you you
01:14:28.900 01:14:28.910 know but I I don't have any experience
01:14:30.730 01:14:30.740 of that okay thank you Cheers thank you
01:14:33.280 01:14:33.290 just one of the issues in large-scale
01:14:35.560 01:14:35.570 manufacturing where you've got a
01:14:37.330 01:14:37.340 constant process load like steam
01:14:39.330 01:14:39.340 absolutely food what if dryers then CHP
01:14:42.970 01:14:42.980 as well would be very beneficial because
01:14:44.680 01:14:44.690 you would have constant heating load and
01:14:47.320 01:14:47.330 the constant electricity vote yeah
01:14:49.920 01:14:49.930 manufacturing 24/7
01:14:51.760 01:14:51.770 distilleries food and drink beverage
01:14:53.830 01:14:53.840 that kind of thing is is where we see a
01:14:55.660 01:14:55.670 lot of us here to be on a lot of these
01:14:57.490 01:14:57.500 sites already exist
01:14:59.270 01:14:59.280 existed since they started up because
01:15:01.029 01:15:01.039 engineers like yourselves probably
01:15:03.109 01:15:03.119 worked there you know so so yeah thanks
01:15:08.839 01:15:08.849 for coming along everybody called
01:15:10.850 01:15:10.860 nitinol but uh it's nice to meet you all
01:15:13.069 01:15:13.079 and keep a touch
01:15:14.600 01:15:14.610 I've left carrots at the back grab one I
01:15:17.479 01:15:17.489 do stuff on LinkedIn and yep questions
01:15:20.779 01:15:20.789 are welcome Cheers okay thank you very
01:15:24.200 01:15:24.210 much thank you to John and thank you to
01:15:25.549 01:15:25.559 Paul
01:15:26.150 01:15:26.160 [Applause]
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