CHP as a Boiler Replacement Opportunity

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00:00:00.000
hello everyone and welcome to the CHP
00:00:02.540 00:00:02.550 partnership webinar on CHP as a boiler
00:00:05.840 00:00:05.850 replacement opportunity it's my pleasure
00:00:08.480 00:00:08.490 to welcome you today and we have a
00:00:11.450 00:00:11.460 number of really expert speakers that
00:00:14.270 00:00:14.280 will share their experiences with you
00:00:15.980 00:00:15.990 and hopefully you'll have a lot of
00:00:17.120 00:00:17.130 questions for them and so we'll use that
00:00:19.700 00:00:19.710 time at the end to cover that so let me
00:00:21.950 00:00:21.960 just do a brief round of introductions
00:00:23.120 00:00:23.130 so our first speaker will be jaehwi
00:00:26.179 00:00:26.189 who's a professional engineer with
00:00:29.390 00:00:29.400 business development director at Worley
00:00:31.279 00:00:31.289 Parsons and he'll bring from the project
00:00:34.549 00:00:34.559 development perspective and then we have
00:00:36.799 00:00:36.809 some facility operators that will be
00:00:39.170 00:00:39.180 joining us from Penn State University
00:00:41.780 00:00:41.790 Paul Moser superintendent of steam
00:00:43.850 00:00:43.860 services and Laura Miller who's senior
00:00:46.490 00:00:46.500 energy engineer and so they'll be
00:00:48.529 00:00:48.539 sharing their experiences actually with
00:00:51.080 00:00:51.090 two systems one that's been put in and
00:00:52.939 00:00:52.949 one that's in the works and then like I
00:00:56.209 00:00:56.219 said we'll have a question-and-answer
00:00:57.529 00:00:57.539 session moderated by my pop Seidner so
00:01:02.029 00:01:02.039 first a couple words of introduction I
00:01:03.920 00:01:03.930 think a lot of you are probably already
00:01:04.850 00:01:04.860 familiar with the EPA CHP partnership
00:01:07.460 00:01:07.470 but perhaps you're not familiar with
00:01:09.890 00:01:09.900 what we're doing lately so we are a
00:01:12.200 00:01:12.210 voluntary program that focuses on
00:01:14.210 00:01:14.220 promoting CHP as a highly efficient way
00:01:17.450 00:01:17.460 to reduce the environmental impact of
00:01:19.969 00:01:19.979 power generation and so we have a lot of
00:01:22.609 00:01:22.619 tools and resources to assist with
00:01:24.890 00:01:24.900 project development and we also target
00:01:27.580 00:01:27.590 barriers regulatory barriers financial
00:01:30.020 00:01:30.030 barriers that sort of thing through the
00:01:33.109 00:01:33.119 over 12 years of the program we have 770
00:01:36.920 00:01:36.930 projects that we've helped we have over
00:01:38.780 00:01:38.790 450 partners and quite a few megawatts
00:01:41.120 00:01:41.130 of capacity that we have facilitated and
00:01:44.120 00:01:44.130 I would also just make a note that so we
00:01:46.639 00:01:46.649 have today's webinar and we plan another
00:01:48.590 00:01:48.600 webinar in June that's going to focus on
00:01:50.830 00:01:50.840 commercial pace and CHP so please do
00:01:54.139 00:01:54.149 stay tuned for further announcements for
00:01:56.480 00:01:56.490 that and real quickly let me just set
00:01:58.999 00:01:59.009 the scene for you so we targeted this
00:02:02.090 00:02:02.100 topic as something that we thought would
00:02:03.679 00:02:03.689 be based on feedback we got from
00:02:05.209 00:02:05.219 partners and speaking with others that
00:02:07.310 00:02:07.320 could look this good you know benefit
00:02:09.800 00:02:09.810 from a closer look so we developed a
00:02:11.240 00:02:11.250 fact sheet
00:02:12.230 00:02:12.240 that we published about a month or so
00:02:14.720 00:02:14.730 ago it's on our website and you'll see
00:02:16.580 00:02:16.590 the URL here on the slide so we're
00:02:18.860 00:02:18.870 trying to do is really illustrate the
00:02:20.930 00:02:20.940 potential economic operational
00:02:23.420 00:02:23.430 environmental benefits of CHP systems in
00:02:26.180 00:02:26.190 terms of looking at old boilers this is
00:02:29.150 00:02:29.160 just a little statistic about how many
00:02:30.800 00:02:30.810 boilers there who are that are forty
00:02:32.720 00:02:32.730 years old is quite a few in this country
00:02:34.550 00:02:34.560 and facility owners are looking at
00:02:36.830 00:02:36.840 increased maintenance cost there are new
00:02:39.350 00:02:39.360 regulations that are coming into being
00:02:41.090 00:02:41.100 and perhaps they have new steam demands
00:02:43.100 00:02:43.110 that have developed since they have the
00:02:45.140 00:02:45.150 system's you know what in into operation
00:02:47.600 00:02:47.610 some years before so there's a number of
00:02:49.070 00:02:49.080 reasons why folks might be looking at a
00:02:51.980 00:02:51.990 boiler replacement option and so we
00:02:54.200 00:02:54.210 thought it would be useful to present a
00:02:55.790 00:02:55.800 comparison between CHP and natural gas
00:02:58.970 00:02:58.980 boilers so that might be a logical
00:03:00.880 00:03:00.890 option for people to consider but
00:03:03.080 00:03:03.090 perhaps if you dig into the numbers and
00:03:04.970 00:03:04.980 the details and your needs on-site you
00:03:07.280 00:03:07.290 may see that CHP would also be something
00:03:09.800 00:03:09.810 you want to consider so we look at there
00:03:12.440 00:03:12.450 a number of different factors in the in
00:03:14.480 00:03:14.490 the analysis and you know for a number
00:03:16.430 00:03:16.440 of facilities we think that CHP would be
00:03:18.530 00:03:18.540 you know a financially attractive option
00:03:20.900 00:03:20.910 so I would commend that reading to you
00:03:23.300 00:03:23.310 if you haven't looked at it already and
00:03:25.130 00:03:25.140 we definitely appreciate feedback on
00:03:27.440 00:03:27.450 that so please do share any thoughts you
00:03:30.170 00:03:30.180 have about when you get a chance to
00:03:31.460 00:03:31.470 review that fact sheet so without
00:03:33.710 00:03:33.720 further ado let me turn to our speakers
00:03:35.720 00:03:35.730 who are introduced already who will be
00:03:37.460 00:03:37.470 providing you with some real-world
00:03:38.810 00:03:38.820 examples of how boiler replacement
00:03:41.600 00:03:41.610 happens elements to consider and kind of
00:03:44.240 00:03:44.250 the challenges and lessons that they've
00:03:46.190 00:03:46.200 learned in in doing this so thank you
00:03:48.560 00:03:48.570 very much
00:04:00.670 00:04:00.680 okay Thank You Susan this is Joe East at
00:04:03.410 00:04:03.420 Worley Parsons and as we go through the
00:04:05.899 00:04:05.909 slides today what I have laid out here
00:04:08.030 00:04:08.040 as requested is an approach to
00:04:10.930 00:04:10.940 evaluating chb as a boiler replacement
00:04:13.940 00:04:13.950 option and maybe most likely from a
00:04:17.270 00:04:17.280 project developer perspective and
00:04:19.009 00:04:19.019 looking at the options and then from
00:04:21.050 00:04:21.060 there we'll close out and I have a case
00:04:23.330 00:04:23.340 study or two that we could get through
00:04:24.890 00:04:24.900 and show you a real-life example of what
00:04:28.580 00:04:28.590 the opportunity is and how to evaluate
00:04:30.590 00:04:30.600 this if you go to the next slide Sarah
00:04:35.529 00:04:35.539 first of all Worley Parsons we are a
00:04:38.600 00:04:38.610 project delivery organization for
00:04:41.060 00:04:41.070 execution of projects helping our
00:04:42.650 00:04:42.660 clients 1 develop projects and then
00:04:46.820 00:04:46.830 deliver them from concept through
00:04:48.830 00:04:48.840 completion and as you can see we are a
00:04:51.529 00:04:51.539 global company about 40,000 people
00:04:53.770 00:04:53.780 located around the world and operating
00:04:55.969 00:04:55.979 primarily in the power hydrocarbons
00:04:57.890 00:04:57.900 mining metals infrastructure environment
00:05:00.529 00:05:00.539 and minerals and chemical sectors next
00:05:04.400 00:05:04.410 slide please
00:05:05.060 00:05:05.070 a key consideration as you approach the
00:05:13.790 00:05:13.800 CHP project and looking at any type of
00:05:16.339 00:05:16.349 project delivery is to look at the
00:05:19.839 00:05:19.849 concept all the way through to
00:05:22.400 00:05:22.410 completion and really as far as what we
00:05:25.730 00:05:25.740 see a Worley Parsons as a project
00:05:27.350 00:05:27.360 delivery approach is taking that blank
00:05:30.110 00:05:30.120 sheet of paper looking at what your
00:05:31.790 00:05:31.800 options are and then from a feasibility
00:05:34.730 00:05:34.740 select consulting perspective take the
00:05:37.520 00:05:37.530 next step transition through a staged
00:05:39.529 00:05:39.539 heated process we've developed a project
00:05:42.740 00:05:42.750 in both scope concept and details along
00:05:45.950 00:05:45.960 with the budget needs as far as
00:05:47.600 00:05:47.610 determining capital and onm operating
00:05:49.580 00:05:49.590 budgets and developing pro formers for a
00:05:53.060 00:05:53.070 bankable feasibility study and then
00:05:55.129 00:05:55.139 actually building the facility and then
00:05:56.930 00:05:56.940 operating and maintaining it is that
00:05:59.210 00:05:59.220 project moves along a development cycle
00:06:02.540 00:06:02.550 as we call it here project delivery and
00:06:05.120 00:06:05.130 project development cycle going from a
00:06:06.950 00:06:06.960 consulting phase to a detailed end
00:06:09.370 00:06:09.380 nearing phase and throw an own and
00:06:11.350 00:06:11.360 operate phase and maintaining the
00:06:13.210 00:06:13.220 facility and that's really the approach
00:06:14.920 00:06:14.930 we take as we step through the process
00:06:17.770 00:06:17.780 here for looking at okay if I wasn't it
00:06:20.800 00:06:20.810 to consider what CHP options I had from
00:06:23.350 00:06:23.360 my facility and what are my alternatives
00:06:25.540 00:06:25.550 when I'm looking at what what was
00:06:28.810 00:06:28.820 presented here from Susan
00:06:30.340 00:06:30.350 as far as consideration of options when
00:06:32.800 00:06:32.810 you're saying okay I have an existing
00:06:34.120 00:06:34.130 facility might be affected by boiler
00:06:35.860 00:06:35.870 MACT and that what are my options going
00:06:38.860 00:06:38.870 forward so as we go through this keep
00:06:41.320 00:06:41.330 that in mind as you would go through
00:06:42.790 00:06:42.800 this process and if you go the next
00:06:45.130 00:06:45.140 slide please Susan
00:06:46.330 00:06:46.340 Sarah why CHP which is the question that
00:06:50.680 00:06:50.690 you proposed to yourself and go to the
00:06:52.600 00:06:52.610 next slide and really what the value is
00:06:57.490 00:06:57.500 here you know and I know we're talking
00:06:59.290 00:06:59.300 about boiler and gas-fired boiler
00:07:01.330 00:07:01.340 options but if you're looking at boiler
00:07:03.730 00:07:03.740 MACT certainly the value proposition
00:07:05.620 00:07:05.630 that you see is you know you're looking
00:07:08.140 00:07:08.150 at okay do I want to continue at this
00:07:09.700 00:07:09.710 point investing in my coal-fired plant
00:07:11.890 00:07:11.900 operations and looking at retrofitted
00:07:14.350 00:07:14.360 air quality control to meet the boiler
00:07:16.000 00:07:16.010 MACT requirements and the things
00:07:17.950 00:07:17.960 associated with that is maybe higher O&M
00:07:20.290 00:07:20.300 costs that would be over existing
00:07:22.780 00:07:22.790 operation the increased maintenance for
00:07:24.610 00:07:24.620 existing equipment you know there's
00:07:26.500 00:07:26.510 really no return on invested capital
00:07:27.730 00:07:27.740 risk of escalating coal costs and you
00:07:30.190 00:07:30.200 still exposed to future regulations
00:07:32.200 00:07:32.210 which might be incurred for continuing
00:07:35.110 00:07:35.120 coal burning an alternative to that is
00:07:37.570 00:07:37.580 to look at okay what is my gas fired CHP
00:07:40.540 00:07:40.550 option is for one you're gonna have
00:07:42.970 00:07:42.980 lower O&M costs leveraged CHP for
00:07:45.760 00:07:45.770 producing electricity and supplementing
00:07:47.590 00:07:47.600 plant load or sell excess power you have
00:07:50.440 00:07:50.450 a natural guy you have a current market
00:07:53.110 00:07:53.120 or a natural gas pricing and at least in
00:07:55.900 00:07:55.910 the near term horizon see somewhat
00:07:57.730 00:07:57.740 stable and then you have a possible
00:08:00.310 00:08:00.320 higher return on investment and lower
00:08:02.020 00:08:02.030 O&M costs through external electricity
00:08:04.600 00:08:04.610 sales and implant profitability for the
00:08:07.930 00:08:07.940 next slide and as you get in
00:08:13.970 00:08:13.980 and these are developing issues that
00:08:16.370 00:08:16.380 have the met have bar occurring and just
00:08:19.010 00:08:19.020 gaining traction in the industry is of
00:08:20.990 00:08:21.000 other things to consider and were well
00:08:23.900 00:08:23.910 covered in the CHP as boiler replacement
00:08:27.320 00:08:27.330 opportunity fact sheet that was just
00:08:28.910 00:08:28.920 issued by the EPA and these are things
00:08:31.760 00:08:31.770 that you have to consider additional
00:08:33.080 00:08:33.090 value and and things that as far as risk
00:08:36.710 00:08:36.720 mitigation techniques and planning for
00:08:39.020 00:08:39.030 future operation where you look at your
00:08:40.580 00:08:40.590 ongoing existing operations and it might
00:08:43.520 00:08:43.530 align with current corporate
00:08:45.080 00:08:45.090 sustainability compliance and them
00:08:46.850 00:08:46.860 tation and plans that you're aligned
00:08:48.410 00:08:48.420 with that by looking at CHP versus
00:08:51.080 00:08:51.090 existing coal even as we go through the
00:08:53.660 00:08:53.670 presentation a gas-fired package boilers
00:08:56.470 00:08:56.480 is their site expansion needs for
00:08:58.910 00:08:58.920 creasing steam demands you have economic
00:09:01.550 00:09:01.560 and operational benefits in
00:09:03.140 00:09:03.150 consideration of this we're certainly a
00:09:06.560 00:09:06.570 gaining issue that is gaining traction
00:09:10.250 00:09:10.260 is enabling system resiliency in energy
00:09:13.430 00:09:13.440 infrastructure and this is really
00:09:14.900 00:09:14.910 considering island mode operations it's
00:09:17.270 00:09:17.280 gained a lot of notoriety with some of
00:09:19.190 00:09:19.200 the recent weather events in the
00:09:20.540 00:09:20.550 Northeast either snow or hurricanes
00:09:23.270 00:09:23.280 where there's been extended outages from
00:09:25.190 00:09:25.200 the regions and maintaining continued
00:09:28.130 00:09:28.140 operations and avoiding you know for
00:09:30.380 00:09:30.390 industrials of waiting shutdowns startup
00:09:32.540 00:09:32.550 cost or unplanned outages and as you get
00:09:36.110 00:09:36.120 into those facilities which are
00:09:38.950 00:09:38.960 institutional types with hospitals or
00:09:41.750 00:09:41.760 nursing care or
00:09:43.360 00:09:43.370 universities where there might be more
00:09:45.560 00:09:45.570 critical benefits as a critical
00:09:46.970 00:09:46.980 infrastructure there are vis to that
00:09:49.310 00:09:49.320 provide Island mode operation during
00:09:51.470 00:09:51.480 those long term extended outages other
00:09:53.600 00:09:53.610 operational benefits and economic our
00:09:55.490 00:09:55.500 hedging against rising electricity costs
00:09:57.440 00:09:57.450 and we'll get into a little bit of why
00:09:59.300 00:09:59.310 that is occurring avoiding costs of new
00:10:01.490 00:10:01.500 regulations again where you might have
00:10:03.110 00:10:03.120 increased regulations and the
00:10:05.570 00:10:05.580 environment for coal and oil fire
00:10:06.950 00:10:06.960 boilers and then the environmental
00:10:08.450 00:10:08.460 benefits which is reduce greenhouse gas
00:10:11.210 00:10:11.220 emissions and other criteria air
00:10:13.520 00:10:13.530 pollutants hazardous air toxic solid
00:10:15.650 00:10:15.660 waste associated with firing coal and
00:10:18.320 00:10:18.330 oil where you have air quality equipment
00:10:20.120 00:10:20.130 and normal waste streams and then even
00:10:22.790 00:10:22.800 as recently as wastewater issues that
00:10:25.370 00:10:25.380 might be
00:10:27.180 00:10:27.190 coming up is associated with coal
00:10:29.100 00:10:29.110 burning and then the other developmental
00:10:31.260 00:10:31.270 benefits is just the increased
00:10:32.610 00:10:32.620 efficiency converting energy into the
00:10:35.520 00:10:35.530 thermal and power and doing it very
00:10:38.430 00:10:38.440 efficient through a CHP process next
00:10:40.620 00:10:40.630 slide and this is just a summary of
00:10:45.540 00:10:45.550 where we're at certainly looking at the
00:10:48.060 00:10:48.070 separate heat and power historical way
00:10:50.190 00:10:50.200 of doing it with the thermal supply and
00:10:52.080 00:10:52.090 then buying electricity which is
00:10:53.700 00:10:53.710 generated and looking at the overall
00:10:55.800 00:10:55.810 combined efficiency of that and
00:10:57.390 00:10:57.400 comparing that the CHP and not going to
00:10:59.940 00:10:59.950 dwell on this but certainly this is the
00:11:01.470 00:11:01.480 backdrop for what we're considering next
00:11:03.270 00:11:03.280 slide so let's just go through ok if
00:11:08.670 00:11:08.680 fully CHP is to be considered what are
00:11:10.740 00:11:10.750 some site design conditions and analysis
00:11:12.810 00:11:12.820 on how you approach this next slide and
00:11:18.300 00:11:18.310 really that means that the objective is
00:11:20.250 00:11:20.260 you want to see what the benefits are so
00:11:22.200 00:11:22.210 you really look at your facility as
00:11:23.580 00:11:23.590 either industrial large institution or
00:11:25.890 00:11:25.900 even commercial and the way we've
00:11:28.230 00:11:28.240 approached this is to say ok if you're
00:11:30.840 00:11:30.850 going to do a quick screening analysis
00:11:32.700 00:11:32.710 approach as far as you know if I want to
00:11:35.370 00:11:35.380 understand what are all my options and
00:11:37.620 00:11:37.630 be able to quickly assess and screen
00:11:40.050 00:11:40.060 them down from a multiple field of
00:11:41.880 00:11:41.890 options if it's 4 or 5 10 15 20 and get
00:11:45.840 00:11:45.850 it down to two or three which are viable
00:11:49.110 00:11:49.120 is this is an approach that you can
00:11:51.300 00:11:51.310 actually take is and this is our
00:11:53.550 00:11:53.560 approach is where you set up some ranges
00:11:55.740 00:11:55.750 of power generation capabilities a range
00:11:58.170 00:11:58.180 of steam generation capabilities within
00:12:00.360 00:12:00.370 a modeling based approach and then look
00:12:04.590 00:12:04.600 at the steam conditions that are
00:12:06.000 00:12:06.010 primarily out there and this is what we
00:12:07.590 00:12:07.600 found is either 150-pound saturated or
00:12:10.350 00:12:10.360 600-pound 7 or 50 degrees steam
00:12:12.840 00:12:12.850 conditions are those that are good
00:12:14.790 00:12:14.800 points of reference to be used as a
00:12:16.860 00:12:16.870 starting point and then familiy can get
00:12:18.630 00:12:18.640 more site-specific and then looking at
00:12:20.790 00:12:20.800 redundancy as far as looking at steam
00:12:23.430 00:12:23.440 backup and without spoilers in the
00:12:26.010 00:12:26.020 approach and then for power is assuming
00:12:29.730 00:12:29.740 maybe that the power supply could be
00:12:32.070 00:12:32.080 backed up from the grid looking at fuel
00:12:34.350 00:12:34.360 supply as natural gas being available
00:12:36.450 00:12:36.460 for gas turbines and the heat recovery
00:12:38.670 00:12:38.680 steam generator and then
00:12:40.410 00:12:40.420 for the office boiler for reliable
00:12:42.269 00:12:42.279 supply just in case that there would be
00:12:44.100 00:12:44.110 a loss of gas is you could have an ox
00:12:46.620 00:12:46.630 boiler dual fuel fired which is oil and
00:12:48.870 00:12:48.880 gas then the prime movers selection and
00:12:51.480 00:12:51.490 then using quick backup next slide
00:12:56.480 00:12:56.490 there's also some other considerations
00:12:58.530 00:12:58.540 is power purchase situation is you know
00:13:01.350 00:13:01.360 developing a scenario where you might be
00:13:03.150 00:13:03.160 selling excess power or just supplying
00:13:05.160 00:13:05.170 the plant needs always emission
00:13:07.170 00:13:07.180 compliance is important in meeting the
00:13:09.660 00:13:09.670 environmental readmission requirements
00:13:11.550 00:13:11.560 and that's one turned down especially
00:13:12.689 00:13:12.699 with combustion turbines and making sure
00:13:15.269 00:13:15.279 that your facility can always be
00:13:16.740 00:13:16.750 compliant with your permit limits the
00:13:18.960 00:13:18.970 flexibility operation certainly we
00:13:20.759 00:13:20.769 understand that with industrials thermal
00:13:23.460 00:13:23.470 requirements or what's the purpose of
00:13:25.199 00:13:25.209 the facility with power being secondary
00:13:27.120 00:13:27.130 so having that operational flexibility
00:13:29.430 00:13:29.440 where you're always needing thermal
00:13:31.110 00:13:31.120 requirements and going from there for
00:13:33.329 00:13:33.339 the added benefit the CHP scope
00:13:35.129 00:13:35.139 certainly in understanding what the
00:13:36.930 00:13:36.940 scope of the project is and the boundary
00:13:38.759 00:13:38.769 limits and then developing cost of
00:13:40.920 00:13:40.930 capital costs and operating costs around
00:13:43.019 00:13:43.029 those operating and maintenance costs
00:13:44.870 00:13:44.880 are important for the evaluation then an
00:13:47.670 00:13:47.680 economic input and just looking at the
00:13:49.769 00:13:49.779 data for how you want to do the analysis
00:13:51.569 00:13:51.579 next slide and this is just not that
00:13:57.389 00:13:57.399 we're here selling equipment but as a
00:13:58.980 00:13:58.990 pre-determined modeling is our approach
00:14:01.829 00:14:01.839 was that we've setup predetermined Heat
00:14:04.590 00:14:04.600 material balances to consider the well
00:14:06.449 00:14:06.459 the realm and breadth of the
00:14:08.850 00:14:08.860 capabilities of each of these systems
00:14:10.259 00:14:10.269 and built modeling around that as a
00:14:12.569 00:14:12.579 basis of doing the sprit quick screening
00:14:15.389 00:14:15.399 and those are the increments that we
00:14:17.220 00:14:17.230 list there and then really the
00:14:18.960 00:14:18.970 configuration is based on your site
00:14:21.150 00:14:21.160 requirements if you're considering CHP
00:14:23.759 00:14:23.769 is looking at either if you have a high
00:14:25.860 00:14:25.870 thermal to power ratio you want to look
00:14:27.870 00:14:27.880 at simple CHP with the gas turbine and
00:14:29.939 00:14:29.949 her sake if you have a combined cycle
00:14:31.769 00:14:31.779 CHP with a back pressure steam turbine
00:14:34.019 00:14:34.029 and then if you really are high in power
00:14:37.379 00:14:37.389 consumption versus your thermal you
00:14:39.480 00:14:39.490 always have the combined cycle with a
00:14:40.949 00:14:40.959 condensing extraction steam turbine
00:14:42.840 00:14:42.850 option next slide
00:14:47.860 00:14:47.870 the approaches is look at your current
00:14:49.630 00:14:49.640 operations and see going forward what
00:14:53.800 00:14:53.810 are the costs associated with that
00:14:55.180 00:14:55.190 another option always is and is
00:14:57.160 00:14:57.170 considered today is looking at fuel
00:14:58.900 00:14:58.910 switching which is gas burners on a coal
00:15:01.210 00:15:01.220 boiler and third option is just putting
00:15:03.700 00:15:03.710 in gas fired packaged boilers and then
00:15:06.040 00:15:06.050 finally what we consider an envelope of
00:15:08.380 00:15:08.390 CHP options is using a gas turbine or a
00:15:11.620 00:15:11.630 reciprocating engine based system and
00:15:13.620 00:15:13.630 looking at alternatives and what that
00:15:15.820 00:15:15.830 would be coming up with a capital
00:15:17.050 00:15:17.060 operating and then doing a net present
00:15:19.540 00:15:19.550 value simple payback and IRR next slide
00:15:26.550 00:15:26.560 and the things that you need to consider
00:15:29.019 00:15:29.029 in the screening model as far as site
00:15:31.450 00:15:31.460 data is and inputs in your evaluation as
00:15:34.990 00:15:35.000 min and Max team requirements to make
00:15:36.700 00:15:36.710 sure you can meet the site operations
00:15:38.680 00:15:38.690 and extremes gas turbine attributes of
00:15:41.260 00:15:41.270 efficiencies and fuel consumption and
00:15:43.840 00:15:43.850 external exhaust temperatures minimum
00:15:46.780 00:15:46.790 fuel gas pressure requirements project
00:15:48.940 00:15:48.950 schedule utility consumptions
00:15:51.490 00:15:51.500 import/export if there's our options for
00:15:53.620 00:15:53.630 that certainly co2 reduction for CHP
00:15:56.400 00:15:56.410 versus non CHP with coal and then
00:15:59.520 00:15:59.530 looking at the displaced electricity if
00:16:02.800 00:16:02.810 you were to include it or not to include
00:16:04.390 00:16:04.400 it certainly our approach is fuel
00:16:07.210 00:16:07.220 chargeable to power which is a
00:16:09.700 00:16:09.710 traditional CHP evaluation approach on
00:16:12.460 00:16:12.470 how you value what incremental fuel is
00:16:15.130 00:16:15.140 needed for heat rate and also for
00:16:18.010 00:16:18.020 calculation of generating your own
00:16:20.350 00:16:20.360 electricity and then finally a thermal
00:16:22.960 00:16:22.970 the power demand ratio and electricity
00:16:25.360 00:16:25.370 price gas ratios next slide is then
00:16:32.500 00:16:32.510 running it through an economic model and
00:16:35.770 00:16:35.780 you know developing you have a capex you
00:16:38.470 00:16:38.480 have a construction schedule and you run
00:16:40.930 00:16:40.940 us through an economic cash flow model
00:16:42.550 00:16:42.560 and continue from there and developing
00:16:45.250 00:16:45.260 the NPV next slide
00:16:50.180 00:16:50.190 and these are some of the benefits that
00:16:52.879 00:16:52.889 we've found in general every sites going
00:16:55.129 00:16:55.139 to be unique but we have generally seen
00:16:56.720 00:16:56.730 forty to sixty percent energy savings
00:16:58.189 00:16:58.199 with an FC P here a basis we've looked
00:17:01.730 00:17:01.740 at systems that heat rates of 3,800 BTS
00:17:05.270 00:17:05.280 four kilowatt hours because of the
00:17:07.039 00:17:07.049 design requirements the one thing to be
00:17:10.130 00:17:10.140 straight on is that you know when you
00:17:12.500 00:17:12.510 look at the capital budget for a CHP
00:17:14.329 00:17:14.339 versus package forwards or retrofit air
00:17:16.250 00:17:16.260 quality it will be higher order a
00:17:18.770 00:17:18.780 magnitude higher in the estimate and
00:17:20.809 00:17:20.819 then but the offsetting challenge or the
00:17:23.960 00:17:23.970 offsetting benefit is the lower
00:17:25.460 00:17:25.470 operating maintenance costs and fuel
00:17:27.679 00:17:27.689 costs and looking at and evaluating that
00:17:30.500 00:17:30.510 against the higher capital and let's go
00:17:32.840 00:17:32.850 into the next slide and I just want to
00:17:35.899 00:17:35.909 run through a quick case study which
00:17:37.279 00:17:37.289 shows these results and if we go on to
00:17:39.529 00:17:39.539 the next slide this is for an 8 megawatt
00:17:41.840 00:17:41.850 CHP which is at a facility and you can
00:17:45.080 00:17:45.090 see the requirements here as far as
00:17:46.580 00:17:46.590 their current power price the amount of
00:17:49.130 00:17:49.140 electricity consumed what there's Steve
00:17:51.680 00:17:51.690 demands for and I emphasize were done in
00:17:54.049 00:17:54.059 44,000 pounds an hour with their
00:17:55.940 00:17:55.950 coal-fired plant and then looking at
00:17:58.460 00:17:58.470 their coal pricing and natural gas
00:17:59.870 00:17:59.880 pricing that's available at 379 450 next
00:18:02.840 00:18:02.850 slide and really the options here were a
00:18:07.340 00:18:07.350 new package boiler with back pressure
00:18:08.930 00:18:08.940 steam turbine we evaluate the Centaur 50
00:18:11.810 00:18:11.820 70 and a hundred as far as the benefits
00:18:14.630 00:18:14.640 and looking at those of producing both
00:18:17.270 00:18:17.280 the power requirements of the site and
00:18:19.130 00:18:19.140 thermal requirements next slide and here
00:18:25.130 00:18:25.140 you can see in both the Centaur 50 and
00:18:27.289 00:18:27.299 70 if you look at that in those
00:18:29.810 00:18:29.820 scenarios that weren't quite enough to
00:18:31.700 00:18:31.710 meet the thermal requirements so you'd
00:18:33.140 00:18:33.150 have to run an ox boil in the background
00:18:34.970 00:18:34.980 and then with the Mars 100 they're
00:18:37.340 00:18:37.350 producing more power than you need to
00:18:38.990 00:18:39.000 the exporting power and then looking at
00:18:41.450 00:18:41.460 an extreme case is they have the Titan
00:18:44.270 00:18:44.280 250 and going from there next slide and
00:18:52.789 00:18:52.799 these are just
00:18:53.570 00:18:53.580 and this is really the true benefit is
00:18:55.580 00:18:55.590 looking at the levelized cost of energy
00:18:57.350 00:18:57.360 is that you can see the the annual
00:19:00.320 00:19:00.330 energy cost what the savings are for
00:19:02.390 00:19:02.400 spending the increased level of capital
00:19:04.270 00:19:04.280 going from the twenty five million for
00:19:06.470 00:19:06.480 just the fuel switching which is the
00:19:08.360 00:19:08.370 annual energy costs to the highest end
00:19:10.820 00:19:10.830 which includes a net benefit from
00:19:12.500 00:19:12.510 selling power to the grid of between
00:19:14.960 00:19:14.970 five and eight and a half million next
00:19:16.610 00:19:16.620 slide and then here this is the total
00:19:20.660 00:19:20.670 project cost is considering well what do
00:19:23.300 00:19:23.310 I have to pay to install these systems
00:19:25.160 00:19:25.170 and you can see to the left the simple
00:19:28.310 00:19:28.320 solutions of retrofitting the coal or
00:19:31.670 00:19:31.680 oil air fuel switching or just putting
00:19:34.250 00:19:34.260 in package boilies against some of the
00:19:36.020 00:19:36.030 incremental costs of looking at
00:19:38.210 00:19:38.220 incremental CHP options or putting in
00:19:40.250 00:19:40.260 the combustion turbines and next costs
00:19:42.470 00:19:42.480 next slide and then just looking at the
00:19:47.540 00:19:47.550 present value of the total energy this
00:19:49.520 00:19:49.530 is gets into the analysis this doesn't
00:19:51.470 00:19:51.480 include capital but just shows you over
00:19:53.690 00:19:53.700 the life cycle analysis what some of the
00:19:55.640 00:19:55.650 present value and what the order of
00:19:57.740 00:19:57.750 magnitude differentials are that you can
00:19:59.870 00:19:59.880 consider in your valuation next slide
00:20:04.090 00:20:04.100 and this is the breakdown of the
00:20:06.680 00:20:06.690 annualized cost as you consider that
00:20:09.110 00:20:09.120 coverage energy bill and all the other
00:20:11.930 00:20:11.940 of operation of the facility next slide
00:20:14.260 00:20:14.270 and this here shows you the incremental
00:20:18.620 00:20:18.630 co2 reduction and the benefits that you
00:20:20.600 00:20:20.610 have from that as far as Inc as you
00:20:23.540 00:20:23.550 increase your power output and thermal
00:20:25.580 00:20:25.590 requirements and efficiency of
00:20:26.930 00:20:26.940 conversion is that you're actually
00:20:29.270 00:20:29.280 saving co2 not from your own facility
00:20:31.550 00:20:31.560 but also what you're displacing from
00:20:34.130 00:20:34.140 that you're generating yourself
00:20:35.450 00:20:35.460 efficiently versus what's being
00:20:37.310 00:20:37.320 generated from the local grid connection
00:20:39.620 00:20:39.630 next slide and this is what you would
00:20:43.670 00:20:43.680 see in an NPV analysis looking at to the
00:20:46.370 00:20:46.380 left side to breakdown and what
00:20:47.900 00:20:47.910 contributes to the net NPV and if you
00:20:50.630 00:20:50.640 see the above the bar bar on the left
00:20:53.660 00:20:53.670 side is that's indicating the revenue
00:20:57.590 00:20:57.600 benefit from selling the excess
00:20:59.420 00:20:59.430 electricity to the local grid and then
00:21:02.540 00:21:02.550 giving you a net NPV that go to the
00:21:04.280 00:21:04.290 right side of each of those bars which
00:21:05.750 00:21:05.760 might be less than
00:21:07.070 00:21:07.080 additional costs next slide if you do a
00:21:10.880 00:21:10.890 screening analysis then you can see
00:21:12.950 00:21:12.960 which might be the lower mtv's but if
00:21:14.720 00:21:14.730 you go to the IRR and simple payback is
00:21:17.060 00:21:17.070 you can see for this then this is in
00:21:20.630 00:21:20.640 reference not to a base case but in
00:21:22.370 00:21:22.380 reference to a package boiler which
00:21:24.680 00:21:24.690 would you be buying knew that even with
00:21:26.570 00:21:26.580 CHP compared to a packaged boiler you're
00:21:29.360 00:21:29.370 still seeing a net payback period in the
00:21:31.940 00:21:31.950 area of four to five years and IRS in
00:21:36.289 00:21:36.299 the twenty to thirty percent range for
00:21:38.090 00:21:38.100 the for the various options to show that
00:21:40.220 00:21:40.230 there are some benefits yet economically
00:21:41.899 00:21:41.909 even as you compared to the savings in
00:21:44.740 00:21:44.750 compared to a new gas packaged boiler
00:21:47.090 00:21:47.100 next slide and just some sensitivities
00:21:51.649 00:21:51.659 for these options as you look at okay
00:21:53.539 00:21:53.549 what's the variability of gas pricing
00:21:55.370 00:21:55.380 how does that affect my payback if you
00:21:57.769 00:21:57.779 go to the next slide is the sensitivity
00:22:02.149 00:22:02.159 to the local electricity purchase price
00:22:04.730 00:22:04.740 and how that affects the payback of the
00:22:07.100 00:22:07.110 project and if you go to the next slide
00:22:10.750 00:22:10.760 another thing that you can calculate as
00:22:13.129 00:22:13.139 your proceeds P is what's the cost of
00:22:15.019 00:22:15.029 steam produced is just allocating the
00:22:17.600 00:22:17.610 capital the onm budget you can see your
00:22:19.460 00:22:19.470 steam required as far as the cost per
00:22:22.070 00:22:22.080 thousand pounds and if you're the next
00:22:23.690 00:22:23.700 slide here you can see what the cost of
00:22:27.200 00:22:27.210 electricity produced would be you can
00:22:29.360 00:22:29.370 calculate what it would cost in each of
00:22:31.580 00:22:31.590 the options and this is the annual
00:22:33.470 00:22:33.480 average so it does blend in if you have
00:22:35.210 00:22:35.220 to purchase a portion of it but you can
00:22:37.580 00:22:37.590 see to generate yourself what the
00:22:39.529 00:22:39.539 benefits are versus purchasing it from
00:22:41.419 00:22:41.429 the grid and if you go to the next slide
00:22:43.279 00:22:43.289 and then if we fix the steam cost at the
00:22:48.230 00:22:48.240 current cost of steam production you can
00:22:50.840 00:22:50.850 see what the normalized cost of
00:22:52.850 00:22:52.860 electricity production would be compared
00:22:55.129 00:22:55.139 to fixing this theme cost versus
00:22:56.720 00:22:56.730 calculating it and to go to the next
00:22:58.669 00:22:58.679 slide so that's the case study as far as
00:23:02.960 00:23:02.970 part of the presentation I do have a
00:23:04.430 00:23:04.440 second case study available but as the
00:23:06.919 00:23:06.929 time as available today is we'll be
00:23:09.169 00:23:09.179 moving on to the next presenter which is
00:23:12.169 00:23:12.179 Paul Moser and Laura Miller at Penn
00:23:13.940 00:23:13.950 State
00:23:18.760 00:23:18.770 good afternoon everybody let's get
00:23:21.399 00:23:21.409 started thank you for inviting us to
00:23:27.159 00:23:27.169 present it's good to see some friends in
00:23:30.159 00:23:30.169 the crowd and we'll get started with a
00:23:33.549 00:23:33.559 little with our story of what Penn State
00:23:35.889 00:23:35.899 is and what our system looks like
00:23:37.740 00:23:37.750 walking through the East Campus steam
00:23:42.070 00:23:42.080 plant project that is complete now and
00:23:44.519 00:23:44.529 we'll bring you up to date to where we
00:23:47.110 00:23:47.120 are today so Penn State University right
00:23:51.580 00:23:51.590 in the middle of Pennsylvania about
00:23:53.470 00:23:53.480 50,000 students faculty and staff any
00:23:58.029 00:23:58.039 given day here and myself representing
00:24:01.810 00:24:01.820 steam services and and Laura
00:24:05.320 00:24:05.330 representing our engineering so the way
00:24:07.330 00:24:07.340 I'll do this is I'll take take it up to
00:24:09.100 00:24:09.110 East Campus steam plant then I'm going
00:24:10.690 00:24:10.700 to hand it over to Laura and let her
00:24:11.919 00:24:11.929 walk you through our next steps
00:24:17.130 00:24:17.140 personnel lives here at Penn State we
00:24:19.930 00:24:19.940 have ten plus engineering and technical
00:24:23.289 00:24:23.299 support folks who are helping us develop
00:24:25.930 00:24:25.940 these projects and here at steam
00:24:28.570 00:24:28.580 services we have more than 40 people
00:24:31.000 00:24:31.010 that are operating and maintaining the
00:24:33.220 00:24:33.230 plants we serve more than 200 buildings
00:24:35.890 00:24:35.900 on campus with the steam system from two
00:24:39.909 00:24:39.919 different power plants a little picture
00:24:42.700 00:24:42.710 of our district energy system here and
00:24:46.090 00:24:46.100 stayed if you look down in the lower
00:24:48.310 00:24:48.320 left you'll see the WCS B or the West
00:24:50.980 00:24:50.990 Campus steam plant over here to the
00:24:53.409 00:24:53.419 right you'll see the East Campus steam
00:24:56.289 00:24:56.299 plant together they serve the shaded
00:24:59.950 00:24:59.960 areas that you can see those are the
00:25:01.539 00:25:01.549 buildings resurfacing is that plus two
00:25:04.419 00:25:04.429 hundred buildings the yellow cup of the
00:25:09.250 00:25:09.260 wheel if you will is our walking tunnel
00:25:11.820 00:25:11.830 we're supplying that tunnel with high
00:25:14.530 00:25:14.540 and low pressure steam piping 150 psi
00:25:17.590 00:25:17.600 for defended low being 13 psi produced
00:25:21.610 00:25:21.620 only from the West Campus steam plant
00:25:23.799 00:25:23.809 back pressure turbines so we've been
00:25:26.260 00:25:26.270 combined heat and power here at Penn
00:25:28.720 00:25:28.730 State since West Campus was built in
00:25:31.510 00:25:31.520 1929 peak steam loads in the wintertime
00:25:36.280 00:25:36.290 are around 420 some thousand pounds per
00:25:40.150 00:25:40.160 hour an hour minimum steam loads in this
00:25:41.980 00:25:41.990 summer about 80,000 pounds an hour so we
00:25:45.340 00:25:45.350 have a fairly dramatic profile there
00:25:48.400 00:25:48.410 it's about 5 to 1 that's that really
00:25:52.180 00:25:52.190 owes itself to the cost of electricity
00:25:53.740 00:25:53.750 here when when we developed this project
00:25:56.560 00:25:56.570 back in o 6 our price of electricity was
00:25:58.990 00:25:59.000 about 3 and 1/2 cents per kilowatt hour
00:26:01.630 00:26:01.640 all in the prices of fuels at the time
00:26:06.280 00:26:06.290 of the 2006 project were development
00:26:11.169 00:26:11.179 excuse me were gas around $13 per
00:26:16.090 00:26:16.100 million Btu called being $80 $90 a ton
00:26:21.880 00:26:21.890 somewhere around 4 dollars a million Btu
00:26:23.950 00:26:23.960 West Campus steam plant the coal-fired
00:26:26.230 00:26:26.240 power plant here at Penn State so we
00:26:31.960 00:26:31.970 don't use steam for chilling really at
00:26:34.030 00:26:34.040 all on campus so we really don't have a
00:26:35.890 00:26:35.900 chilling load in the summer just a just
00:26:39.280 00:26:39.290 a picture of where the West Campus steam
00:26:41.649 00:26:41.659 plant right in the middle of State
00:26:42.970 00:26:42.980 College it's the corner of Burroughs
00:26:45.850 00:26:45.860 Avenue and College Avenue and again
00:26:48.520 00:26:48.530 that's a coal-fired power plant annual
00:26:51.159 00:26:51.169 tonnage of coal at the time was 70 75
00:26:54.220 00:26:54.230 thousand tons of coal any winter day we
00:26:58.060 00:26:58.070 would have seen 25 30 trucks a day of
00:27:01.360 00:27:01.370 coal right here in the West Campus steam
00:27:03.039 00:27:03.049 plant you're looking at a natural bag
00:27:06.190 00:27:06.200 house connected to the chimney and East
00:27:11.710 00:27:11.720 Campus steam plant located a little bit
00:27:15.520 00:27:15.530 further out and you can see it here it's
00:27:19.409 00:27:19.419 it's too packaged boilers they're a
00:27:22.720 00:27:22.730 hundred thousand pounds an hour each
00:27:24.310 00:27:24.320 their natural gas-fired
00:27:25.750 00:27:25.760 with fuel oil number two as a backup
00:27:31.140 00:27:31.150 okay so the energy picture in 2006 we
00:27:35.890 00:27:35.900 needed additional capacity we had our
00:27:38.500 00:27:38.510 peak steam demand in the wintertime was
00:27:42.730 00:27:42.740 approaching our n minus-1 capacity so we
00:27:48.250 00:27:48.260 were seeing increasing steam demands
00:27:50.230 00:27:50.240 each year so that was a big one we have
00:27:54.190 00:27:54.200 an aging infrastructure so East Campus
00:27:56.320 00:27:56.330 steam plant built in 1971 was the last
00:27:59.950 00:27:59.960 major upgrade to the steam system where
00:28:02.200 00:28:02.210 forty years ago last major upgrade to
00:28:04.690 00:28:04.700 the steam system with campus growth
00:28:11.590 00:28:11.600 yeah with campus growth so so we went 40
00:28:16.990 00:28:17.000 place at 40 years without a major
00:28:20.020 00:28:20.030 upgrade to our steam generation systems
00:28:25.050 00:28:25.060 essential services also this was shortly
00:28:29.830 00:28:29.840 after the Katrina that and others and a
00:28:32.650 00:28:32.660 lot of us in our field started asking
00:28:35.260 00:28:35.270 ourselves the question if we were
00:28:36.460 00:28:36.470 prepared and found that our answer
00:28:38.620 00:28:38.630 really was no and so we this was how we
00:28:42.640 00:28:42.650 defined it essential services how and
00:28:45.580 00:28:45.590 where would we care for about ten
00:28:46.990 00:28:47.000 thousand people on campus and should we
00:28:49.660 00:28:49.670 have a total loss of power something we
00:28:52.720 00:28:52.730 really had not experienced but we had
00:28:57.400 00:28:57.410 seen others of our friends in the
00:28:59.200 00:28:59.210 Northeast experienced total loss of
00:29:01.840 00:29:01.850 power and we felt we needed about 12
00:29:03.520 00:29:03.530 megawatts on-site to to meet the
00:29:07.420 00:29:07.430 essential services so we were looking
00:29:09.070 00:29:09.080 for a way to to solve that those those
00:29:12.130 00:29:12.140 problems and so why did we pick CHP we
00:29:15.700 00:29:15.710 felt that have solved the energy picture
00:29:17.950 00:29:17.960 that I just described we also felt that
00:29:20.980 00:29:20.990 it was a better commitment energy
00:29:22.960 00:29:22.970 efficiency instead of the boilers and
00:29:25.870 00:29:25.880 the emergency generator sets
00:29:27.930 00:29:27.940 specifically specifically only EEG sets
00:29:31.440 00:29:31.450 having a CT that was running running all
00:29:36.400 00:29:36.410 the time would prove that it would be
00:29:38.560 00:29:38.570 available when we needed it so we've
00:29:41.230 00:29:41.240 been going with that philosophy no
00:29:45.130 00:29:45.140 picture of the East Campus steam plant
00:29:47.040 00:29:47.050 and what you see here are two times one
00:29:52.330 00:29:52.340 hundred and seventy two thousand pounds
00:29:53.950 00:29:53.960 or gallons of diesel fuel out front so
00:29:57.430 00:29:57.440 our backup fuel and the addition here is
00:30:01.060 00:30:01.070 what's housing the CT and the her sake
00:30:04.660 00:30:04.670 so what we did here was add additional
00:30:08.140 00:30:08.150 boiler capacity we did not replace or
00:30:10.900 00:30:10.910 the capacity we needed additional over
00:30:14.230 00:30:14.240 here you see the original building that
00:30:16.720 00:30:16.730 held the two times one hundred thousand
00:30:19.360 00:30:19.370 pound on our packaged boilers you went
00:30:23.380 00:30:23.390 inside you'd see this and
00:30:25.150 00:30:25.160 that's our our sole art or a 70 Rushton
00:30:30.670 00:30:30.680 turbine and if you were to take the box
00:30:33.520 00:30:33.530 away you can see the engine that looks
00:30:35.950 00:30:35.960 like this this is the way I've looked in
00:30:37.480 00:30:37.490 San Diego before they ship it to Penn
00:30:39.760 00:30:39.770 State and it's connected to a rentec
00:30:42.520 00:30:42.530 boiler rated at a hundred and seventeen
00:30:45.700 00:30:45.710 thousand pounds an hour saturated
00:30:48.820 00:30:48.830 conditions 220 psi delivering the campus
00:30:53.020 00:30:53.030 somewhere around 140 or 50 whatever the
00:30:56.200 00:30:56.210 campus
00:30:57.160 00:30:57.170 high-pressure scene demands on so just a
00:31:02.590 00:31:02.600 little view of what the cycle looks like
00:31:05.350 00:31:05.360 so bottom here is our combustion turbine
00:31:08.530 00:31:08.540 with the natural gas or lower oil added
00:31:12.730 00:31:12.740 we're going to run this on gas under all
00:31:14.770 00:31:14.780 conditions oil is really just a strictly
00:31:18.340 00:31:18.350 a back up and it's anomaly rated at 7
00:31:22.330 00:31:22.340 megawatts it'll make a little over eight
00:31:24.250 00:31:24.260 megawatts on a cold cold winter day and
00:31:27.280 00:31:27.290 it'll make under just under six
00:31:31.360 00:31:31.370 megawatts on a hot summer day its
00:31:35.890 00:31:35.900 exhaust temperature at 900 degrees is
00:31:38.530 00:31:38.540 feeding a boiler and it's producing
00:31:41.320 00:31:41.330 steam in the without any duct firing at
00:31:44.580 00:31:44.590 32,000 pounds per hour and we can add
00:31:49.150 00:31:49.160 duck firing to this which we are doing
00:31:52.150 00:31:52.160 almost all the time
00:31:53.710 00:31:53.720 and we couldn't bring that up to a total
00:31:56.590 00:31:56.600 of 117 thousand pounds per hour and on a
00:31:59.770 00:31:59.780 cold winter day here at East Campus
00:32:02.320 00:32:02.330 plant this this units usually running at
00:32:05.200 00:32:05.210 a hundred plus thousand pounds an hour
00:32:07.230 00:32:07.240 that's what we're trying to keep it at a
00:32:09.400 00:32:09.410 minimum we'll run it above that
00:32:17.549 00:32:17.559 so just some project costs CT was close
00:32:23.049 00:32:23.059 to four million dollars a herceg was one
00:32:25.060 00:32:25.070 and a half and in order to fit this into
00:32:28.419 00:32:28.429 the existing plant we had to build up
00:32:30.820 00:32:30.830 the balance of plants so the plant was
00:32:32.649 00:32:32.659 designed for the units that were there
00:32:34.269 00:32:34.279 not the units that aren't there so we
00:32:37.539 00:32:37.549 added feed water capacity duration a
00:32:41.289 00:32:41.299 pump we added water treatment in the way
00:32:46.509 00:32:46.519 of softeners and reverse osmosis
00:32:49.080 00:32:49.090 demineralize errs and really a full
00:32:54.310 00:32:54.320 build-out to accept this machine we're
00:32:59.080 00:32:59.090 using the sole our service agreement and
00:33:01.690 00:33:01.700 that means they're going to be in here
00:33:04.649 00:33:04.659 twice a year once in the spring once in
00:33:07.659 00:33:07.669 the fall in fact next week they'll be in
00:33:10.389 00:33:10.399 here to do a out of service inspection
00:33:12.970 00:33:12.980 and then in the winter in the summer
00:33:16.029 00:33:16.039 we'll do an in-service inspection and
00:33:18.180 00:33:18.190 then we'll expect to complete overall
00:33:21.190 00:33:21.200 after about 30,000 hours and these costs
00:33:24.580 00:33:24.590 that you see below are the cost that
00:33:27.849 00:33:27.859 you're basically investing so that
00:33:29.499 00:33:29.509 you're prepared to go for the complete
00:33:32.259 00:33:32.269 overhaul and we have not had one yet but
00:33:36.580 00:33:36.590 when we do we just expect that the
00:33:38.080 00:33:38.090 engine will be removed and replaced with
00:33:40.599 00:33:40.609 another engine and we'll get going from
00:33:43.690 00:33:43.700 there so our projected electrical
00:33:48.070 00:33:48.080 generation a little bit on the
00:33:49.239 00:33:49.249 electricity prior to putting in the CT
00:33:53.229 00:33:53.239 we were producing we are producing
00:33:55.570 00:33:55.580 electricity here at the West Campus
00:33:57.519 00:33:57.529 steam plant using steam turbines and
00:34:00.359 00:34:00.369 producing back pressure steam to campus
00:34:02.799 00:34:02.809 so our electrical load always followed
00:34:05.379 00:34:05.389 the steam load and in the summer time we
00:34:08.020 00:34:08.030 we would make really just about 500
00:34:10.059 00:34:10.069 kilowatts of power in the wintertime we
00:34:12.039 00:34:12.049 could make a little over three megawatts
00:34:15.129 00:34:15.139 of power so prior to the CT which this
00:34:18.639 00:34:18.649 pie is showing really we only made about
00:34:21.940 00:34:21.950 4% of the electricity that the campus
00:34:25.359 00:34:25.369 demanded our typical hot summer day
00:34:28.149 00:34:28.159 electrical demand
00:34:29.380 00:34:29.390 campus 50 megawatts our cold winter day
00:34:32.820 00:34:32.830 electrical is somewhere around 30
00:34:35.290 00:34:35.300 megawatts but this electrical generator
00:34:38.770 00:34:38.780 generation that we do produce is a
00:34:40.630 00:34:40.640 hundred percent of our emergency power
00:34:43.950 00:34:43.960 necessary to feed the buildings that is
00:34:46.390 00:34:46.400 for the for the emergency lighting to
00:34:49.420 00:34:49.430 egress lighting to get out of a building
00:34:51.400 00:34:51.410 and a total loss of power so we can
00:34:53.620 00:34:53.630 feedback from our emergency cable that
00:34:55.660 00:34:55.670 is fed from the West Campus steam plant
00:34:57.660 00:34:57.670 electrical generation as we go through
00:35:00.580 00:35:00.590 an abyss CT with the hearse again east
00:35:02.740 00:35:02.750 plant then our electric generation is
00:35:05.800 00:35:05.810 going to get a little more like five to
00:35:09.520 00:35:09.530 one purchased to produced on-site and
00:35:15.280 00:35:15.290 I've got another PI here that shows and
00:35:18.780 00:35:18.790 will tell you a little more about this
00:35:20.980 00:35:20.990 but the there may be some room to put in
00:35:23.470 00:35:23.480 another CHP and should we go that
00:35:27.190 00:35:27.200 direction we think our electrical
00:35:28.630 00:35:28.640 demands will look this way we'll never
00:35:30.340 00:35:30.350 we don't have enough heat load for us to
00:35:33.280 00:35:33.290 produce all of our on-site power our
00:35:39.580 00:35:39.590 fuel mix prior to the East Campus
00:35:42.280 00:35:42.290 upgrade we were a coal facility coal was
00:35:46.480 00:35:46.490 dramatically less expensive we have the
00:35:49.440 00:35:49.450 infrastructure here at West to produce
00:35:51.490 00:35:51.500 it
00:35:52.030 00:35:52.040 West plant came first so the low
00:35:55.390 00:35:55.400 pressure comes out of West and East
00:35:58.420 00:35:58.430 plant came later and it was just the
00:36:00.190 00:36:00.200 pipng plan so east really as you can see
00:36:03.010 00:36:03.020 from here made about four or five
00:36:04.540 00:36:04.550 percent of the steam per year came from
00:36:06.760 00:36:06.770 east until we put this project together
00:36:09.310 00:36:09.320 and then it started to look a little bit
00:36:13.150 00:36:13.160 more like whoops went backwards how
00:36:16.630 00:36:16.640 about that as we go through as we added
00:36:20.590 00:36:20.600 the East Campus now your coal coal gas
00:36:23.800 00:36:23.810 consumption starts to starts the goal or
00:36:27.310 00:36:27.320 more towards gas and hey as our gas
00:36:29.710 00:36:29.720 price is really kicking down again we
00:36:32.380 00:36:32.390 developed this project with high gas
00:36:34.030 00:36:34.040 prices and local prices as those gas
00:36:37.300 00:36:37.310 prices came down and cold enough we're
00:36:40.120 00:36:40.130 burning gas
00:36:41.670 00:36:41.680 as much as possible we even have the
00:36:43.920 00:36:43.930 capability to burden here at West as we
00:36:47.250 00:36:47.260 go through our upgrades at West which
00:36:49.079 00:36:49.089 again I'll tell you a little bit more
00:36:50.460 00:36:50.470 about what we're doing but we'll see our
00:36:53.640 00:36:53.650 cold eventually go away towards a
00:36:56.490 00:36:56.500 hundred percent gas after 2015 boiler
00:37:00.990 00:37:01.000 MACT upgrades a little shot of our
00:37:05.130 00:37:05.140 efficiency it's just a you know a
00:37:08.160 00:37:08.170 spreadsheet we keep track of our our
00:37:10.520 00:37:10.530 consumption of fuel and our production
00:37:13.200 00:37:13.210 of steam and electricity each day and
00:37:16.260 00:37:16.270 here you can just see how a kind of
00:37:18.299 00:37:18.309 fluctuates a little bit here with how we
00:37:20.579 00:37:20.589 were operating Westland and peaking with
00:37:22.559 00:37:22.569 east and then really in in June May June
00:37:27.839 00:37:27.849 timeframe of 2011 we started full-time
00:37:35.309 00:37:35.319 with the East Campus steam plant running
00:37:37.559 00:37:37.569 it and our efficiencies overall and for
00:37:40.170 00:37:40.180 our overall district energy system have
00:37:43.530 00:37:43.540 leveled out right up here around 70%
00:37:45.299 00:37:45.309 when it's when it's producing a hundred
00:37:48.240 00:37:48.250 percent of its power thank you okay so
00:37:53.220 00:37:53.230 as efficiency is important to Penn State
00:37:56.160 00:37:56.170 so is sustainability and greenhouse gas
00:37:58.859 00:37:58.869 production so if you look at the top
00:38:00.690 00:38:00.700 line it is our energy consumption over
00:38:05.069 00:38:05.079 the past several years and you can see
00:38:07.620 00:38:07.630 the Green Line which is our greenhouse
00:38:09.359 00:38:09.369 gasses tracked that energy consumption
00:38:13.289 00:38:13.299 like for a very long time and then we
00:38:15.539 00:38:15.549 committed to at first a 17% reduction
00:38:19.140 00:38:19.150 and now unofficially we're looking at a
00:38:22.230 00:38:22.240 35% reduction and as you see this wedge
00:38:25.950 00:38:25.960 shape that occurs toward the end of the
00:38:28.200 00:38:28.210 graph and we'll see it here that's ok
00:38:31.410 00:38:31.420 you'll this blue wedge safe you'll start
00:38:33.839 00:38:33.849 to see that more and more often and the
00:38:35.760 00:38:35.770 biggest reason behind that reduction is
00:38:41.039 00:38:41.049 that when we put in the CT and be
00:38:44.130 00:38:44.140 displaced anywhere between thirty to a
00:38:46.620 00:38:46.630 hundred thousand pounds of steam with
00:38:49.440 00:38:49.450 gas fuel versus coal fuel we
00:38:54.120 00:38:54.130 automatically saw
00:38:55.290 00:38:55.300 greenhouse gas reduction but we also
00:38:57.390 00:38:57.400 displace you know millions and millions
00:39:00.060 00:39:00.070 of kilowatt hours that we bought from
00:39:02.220 00:39:02.230 the PJM grid and if you're familiar with
00:39:05.010 00:39:05.020 the Northeast we are still over 50% coal
00:39:08.280 00:39:08.290 on our PJM grid so not only do we burn a
00:39:12.060 00:39:12.070 cleaner fuel but we also make our own
00:39:15.360 00:39:15.370 cleaner electricity so that we're not
00:39:18.890 00:39:18.900 contributing in that way to greenhouse
00:39:21.120 00:39:21.130 gases so another part of that is not
00:39:24.750 00:39:24.760 only do we make building improvements
00:39:28.440 00:39:28.450 through a program called energy savings
00:39:31.200 00:39:31.210 projects we also have started targeting
00:39:33.900 00:39:33.910 some energy savings projects at our
00:39:36.450 00:39:36.460 utilities so energy efficiency changing
00:39:41.130 00:39:41.140 fuels and this is just a picture of our
00:39:43.590 00:39:43.600 electric load which has remained pretty
00:39:46.140 00:39:46.150 steady it's the red and then the coal is
00:39:48.870 00:39:48.880 shown in the white and it's starting to
00:39:51.270 00:39:51.280 go down as our natural gas load is
00:39:53.340 00:39:53.350 starting to increase the oil plays a
00:39:56.190 00:39:56.200 very minimal role again we use a diesel
00:39:59.850 00:39:59.860 only as a backup and that is the light
00:40:04.350 00:40:04.360 red ok so then the next slide is just an
00:40:09.840 00:40:09.850 example it's that wedge shape again and
00:40:12.330 00:40:12.340 it shows you where we've concentrated
00:40:14.010 00:40:14.020 our efforts and the big black wedge is
00:40:17.420 00:40:17.430 what we contribute to making that switch
00:40:20.640 00:40:20.650 to the CHP that the CT and the heat
00:40:24.630 00:40:24.640 recovery steam generator the very bottom
00:40:27.510 00:40:27.520 white wedge is the difference that we'll
00:40:30.090 00:40:30.100 see because will already have been on
00:40:32.460 00:40:32.470 gas when we go if we go to a second CT
00:40:36.330 00:40:36.340 Herzing combination
00:40:41.840 00:40:41.850 Shone's our co2 reduction over time so
00:40:45.140 00:40:45.150 again we're heading towards pool natural
00:40:48.020 00:40:48.030 gas operation and this just gives you a
00:40:50.360 00:40:50.370 reduction from basically from the cold
00:40:52.790 00:40:52.800 fire two hundred thousand tons a year of
00:40:55.430 00:40:55.440 co2 down to a little under a hundred
00:40:57.730 00:40:57.740 thousand and our next steps is here at
00:41:00.890 00:41:00.900 West Campus we have to comply with the
00:41:02.930 00:41:02.940 boiler MACT and to do that we'll we will
00:41:06.580 00:41:06.590 change from coal to natural gas and as
00:41:10.700 00:41:10.710 part of that we're looking at a second
00:41:13.310 00:41:13.320 CT Herzing so if you remember our low
00:41:15.740 00:41:15.750 steam flow in the winter is about eighty
00:41:18.200 00:41:18.210 thousand pounds an hour and unfired
00:41:20.890 00:41:20.900 operating just with the CT it's about
00:41:23.150 00:41:23.160 thirty thousand so it looks like a
00:41:24.800 00:41:24.810 second CT fits our low profile and again
00:41:29.120 00:41:29.130 it would go on the West Campus steam
00:41:30.710 00:41:30.720 plant replacing you're looking at more
00:41:34.190 00:41:34.200 coal-fired boilers over here you'll see
00:41:37.070 00:41:37.080 two packaged boilers when the MACT is
00:41:38.810 00:41:38.820 done and if the evaluation continues on
00:41:42.440 00:41:42.450 and we can do it we put Oct and
00:41:45.230 00:41:45.240 rehearsing combination they're quickly
00:41:49.520 00:41:49.530 going through their this is our West
00:41:51.170 00:41:51.180 Campus CHP something we've been doing
00:41:53.150 00:41:53.160 for a long time and the layout of the
00:41:57.440 00:41:57.450 West plant so here's the boiler MACT
00:41:59.450 00:41:59.460 solution to new packaged boilers and
00:42:02.680 00:42:02.690 keeping the old coal-fired boilers until
00:42:05.660 00:42:05.670 we could one day find a way to put in a
00:42:08.440 00:42:08.450 CT with a her stake so the current
00:42:15.760 00:42:15.770 program to convert our power plant from
00:42:19.580 00:42:19.590 coal to natural gas does not include
00:42:21.980 00:42:21.990 additional funding for a second CT
00:42:24.680 00:42:24.690 herceg we're looking hard at that it's
00:42:27.470 00:42:27.480 being funded through our energy program
00:42:29.570 00:42:29.580 and again Paul just told you what our
00:42:32.390 00:42:32.400 costs were when we did the first CT the
00:42:35.330 00:42:35.340 first CT makes sense now with the
00:42:37.430 00:42:37.440 economics change second CT it's starting
00:42:40.130 00:42:40.140 to make sense we have a 60 million
00:42:44.270 00:42:44.280 dollar budget that is primarily for
00:42:46.850 00:42:46.860 building and utility energy improvements
00:42:49.400 00:42:49.410 this is what I had hoped it looked like
00:42:51.320 00:42:51.330 the next slide shows you if we decide to
00:42:54.650 00:42:54.660 fund the seats
00:42:55.490 00:42:55.500 a person from our energy program that we
00:42:58.160 00:42:58.170 do that at the expense of some building
00:43:01.130 00:43:01.140 improvements so this is where we are now
00:43:02.960 00:43:02.970 does it make sense to save energy and
00:43:05.630 00:43:05.640 operate efficiently with a new CT or
00:43:07.940 00:43:07.950 make improvements in our buildings again
00:43:11.450 00:43:11.460 that was our wedge about white wedge at
00:43:15.320 00:43:15.330 the very bottom would go away and
00:43:17.390 00:43:17.400 actually fold up into the lime green
00:43:19.640 00:43:19.650 which is our building improvements
00:43:21.380 00:43:21.390 because it would be funded from that
00:43:23.090 00:43:23.100 project thank you excellent thank you
00:43:34.340 00:43:34.350 Paul and Laura thank you for that very
00:43:36.350 00:43:36.360 interesting and informative presentation
00:43:37.940 00:43:37.950 about Penn State University of CHP and
00:43:40.790 00:43:40.800 energy-efficient I I will pose questions
00:43:44.900 00:43:44.910 to our panelists that have been
00:43:46.280 00:43:46.290 submitted during today's webinar a large
00:43:48.560 00:43:48.570 number of insightful questions are on
00:43:50.750 00:43:50.760 our plate so I'm going to jump right
00:43:51.770 00:43:51.780 into them however before I do so please
00:43:54.860 00:43:54.870 note that we intend to answer each
00:43:56.660 00:43:56.670 submitted question either directly via a
00:43:59.180 00:43:59.190 go to webinars functionality via email
00:44:02.120 00:44:02.130 or during this question and answer
00:44:03.770 00:44:03.780 session so the first question we have on
00:44:07.010 00:44:07.020 our plate here is for Jay Jay why was
00:44:10.280 00:44:10.290 the NPV negative when we should appeared
00:44:12.740 00:44:12.750 to be while came back was on the order
00:44:15.020 00:44:15.030 of five years
00:44:22.030 00:44:22.040 yes the NPV calculation is compared
00:44:26.300 00:44:26.310 against the base reference case so when
00:44:29.570 00:44:29.580 you calculate a positive IR and payback
00:44:33.260 00:44:33.270 it's against which is the end they all
00:44:35.840 00:44:35.850 were negative NPV s but it's compared
00:44:38.630 00:44:38.640 against the savings in the differential
00:44:40.280 00:44:40.290 the mtv's in cash flow that you see
00:44:43.370 00:44:43.380 against the base case analysis which is
00:44:45.650 00:44:45.660 either the package boiler installation
00:44:48.520 00:44:48.530 for the new package boilers or against
00:44:51.170 00:44:51.180 the Coal Fired reference continuing
00:44:53.600 00:44:53.610 coal-fired plant operations I wouldn't
00:45:17.000 00:45:17.010 say unusual challenges I think we have
00:45:18.770 00:45:18.780 the normal challenges for air permits
00:45:20.690 00:45:20.700 the East plant took it might have been a
00:45:24.530 00:45:24.540 12-month process from start to finish by
00:45:26.630 00:45:26.640 the time we got the permit but I don't
00:45:28.910 00:45:28.920 we just went through the normal PA
00:45:31.240 00:45:31.250 Pennsylvania central DEP process alright
00:45:39.380 00:45:39.390 excellent always good to hear that
00:45:40.730 00:45:40.740 Sperling is not an obstacle as I do
00:45:43.670 00:45:43.680 personally know that then sometimes
00:45:45.349 00:45:45.359 proceed to do the case then moving right
00:45:47.900 00:45:47.910 along because time is of the essence
00:45:49.550 00:45:49.560 here the next one is for J and J given
00:45:52.940 00:45:52.950 your experience with project development
00:45:54.920 00:45:54.930 what is the major barrier I think as
00:46:04.670 00:46:04.680 each of the owners on industrial sites
00:46:07.310 00:46:07.320 or institutional's I face this and I
00:46:09.380 00:46:09.390 think Paul kind of covered this is there
00:46:11.630 00:46:11.640 really internal as far as capital
00:46:13.880 00:46:13.890 budgeting process and just Co overcoming
00:46:16.010 00:46:16.020 that is being as I showed in the total
00:46:18.530 00:46:18.540 project cost slide you can see that to
00:46:21.290 00:46:21.300 consider a package boilers versus a CHP
00:46:23.750 00:46:23.760 plant that's an order of magnitude
00:46:25.940 00:46:25.950 difference in cost required and trying
00:46:28.820 00:46:28.830 to cover those development projects in a
00:46:30.620 00:46:30.630 capital budget is you know Kalyn
00:46:33.530 00:46:33.540 and how you plan and how you approach
00:46:35.480 00:46:35.490 that especially if it's like an
00:46:37.850 00:46:37.860 industrial where you know power thermal
00:46:40.250 00:46:40.260 is not your core competency of what you
00:46:43.040 00:46:43.050 want to focus your investments on so you
00:46:46.790 00:46:46.800 know really that's a that's a large
00:46:48.860 00:46:48.870 hurdle is to make that step out to
00:46:51.830 00:46:51.840 increment that capital expenditures
00:46:54.820 00:46:54.830 where it's not your core business and
00:46:58.570 00:46:58.580 the next one certainly is just
00:47:00.830 00:47:00.840 understanding the value of the benefit
00:47:04.940 00:47:04.950 to and the value to the project of
00:47:06.940 00:47:06.950 considering selling electricity to the
00:47:10.060 00:47:10.070 local and the benefits information HP
00:47:31.850 00:47:31.860 system comes certified qualified
00:47:34.460 00:47:34.470 facility that's what certainly is part
00:47:47.720 00:47:47.730 of the deal we at EPA CHP initiative is
00:47:51.170 00:47:51.180 going state-by-state and developing
00:47:53.570 00:47:53.580 those scenarios and what I would say is
00:47:56.720 00:47:56.730 that if you look at it's a different
00:47:59.570 00:47:59.580 answer for different regions because if
00:48:02.360 00:48:02.370 you are in an unbreaking region there
00:48:04.550 00:48:04.560 are opportunities depending on the size
00:48:06.530 00:48:06.540 of your CHP to maximize the value by
00:48:10.040 00:48:10.050 participating in those wholesale markets
00:48:12.140 00:48:12.150 where you might be in New England ISO or
00:48:14.630 00:48:14.640 ISO New York or PJM as examples or
00:48:18.080 00:48:18.090 myself and benefiting from trading power
00:48:21.070 00:48:21.080 versus contracting directly with a local
00:48:24.350 00:48:24.360 utility for like a power purchase
00:48:25.760 00:48:25.770 agreement so and those are some
00:48:28.310 00:48:28.320 something you have to balance based on a
00:48:29.660 00:48:29.670 site-specific issue if you're in a
00:48:31.640 00:48:31.650 regulated territory where the utility is
00:48:33.970 00:48:33.980 is providing it integrated and
00:48:36.530 00:48:36.540 vertically integrated regulated power
00:48:38.660 00:48:38.670 and or if you're an unregulated the
00:48:41.390 00:48:41.400 options are totally different as far as
00:48:43.040 00:48:43.050 how you might look at participating in
00:48:45.860 00:48:45.870 the wholesale
00:48:46.460 00:48:46.470 market and when I say participate
00:48:49.150 00:48:49.160 transaction go both ways and that
00:48:51.560 00:48:51.570 includes access to standby power in
00:48:53.990 00:48:54.000 addition and backup power in addition to
00:48:56.510 00:48:56.520 selling your excess power everyone thank
00:49:01.220 00:49:01.230 you very much
00:49:02.089 00:49:02.099 I've been told that I might be not
00:49:04.520 00:49:04.530 coming through quite so clearly so I
00:49:05.870 00:49:05.880 will raise my voice in hopes that
00:49:07.040 00:49:07.050 everyone can hear me the next question
00:49:09.109 00:49:09.119 is for Paul and Lauren I believe on
00:49:11.750 00:49:11.760 slide 14 you had a graph or a chart that
00:49:15.260 00:49:15.270 showed that greenhouse gas emissions and
00:49:17.300 00:49:17.310 purchase energy had decreased recently
00:49:20.000 00:49:20.010 is this due to reduced purchases of
00:49:22.609 00:49:22.619 energy or due to changes in greenhouse
00:49:25.070 00:49:25.080 gas content of purchased electricity
00:49:27.109 00:49:27.119 bottom line can you elaborate please
00:49:29.470 00:49:29.480 it's actually due to both because we're
00:49:34.160 00:49:34.170 offsetting between a hundred thousand
00:49:37.490 00:49:37.500 pounds of steam coal so green the
00:49:46.190 00:49:46.200 greenhouse gas and secondly we're making
00:49:56.630 00:49:56.640 about seven megawatts per hour of
00:49:59.390 00:49:59.400 electricity with that natural gas and
00:50:02.530 00:50:02.540 we're not buying that electricity making
00:50:15.410 00:50:15.420 a cleaner electric electron fantastic
00:50:26.750 00:50:26.760 thank you very much we're down to about
00:50:28.520 00:50:28.530 four minutes remaining so we've got a
00:50:30.380 00:50:30.390 few more questions I believe we can
00:50:31.820 00:50:31.830 squeeze in so next up another one for
00:50:34.790 00:50:34.800 Jay and the question is what impacts
00:50:37.010 00:50:37.020 have you seen on project viability from
00:50:40.130 00:50:40.140 the anticipated cost associated with
00:50:42.260 00:50:42.270 utility interconnection changes and
00:50:44.270 00:50:44.280 standby charges yeah I think that's
00:50:47.510 00:50:47.520 probably a follow-on from maybe the last
00:50:49.579 00:50:49.589 question it is something you have to
00:50:52.130 00:50:52.140 consider because in certain regions they
00:50:54.170 00:50:54.180 have been significant
00:50:55.270 00:50:55.280 in the past but again I will say that
00:50:58.060 00:50:58.070 there are state-by-state initiatives
00:50:59.950 00:50:59.960 where you're dealing with a regulated
00:51:01.870 00:51:01.880 utility - I'll say better facilitate the
00:51:07.210 00:51:07.220 economics of CHP development that those
00:51:10.900 00:51:10.910 standby charges be reconsidered and as
00:51:13.690 00:51:13.700 they use the state of Ohio as an example
00:51:15.730 00:51:15.740 I know through their P PUC of Ohio that
00:51:19.980 00:51:19.990 they are embarking on you know trying to
00:51:23.170 00:51:23.180 develop new regulations and guidelines
00:51:25.570 00:51:25.580 that they follow for promoting CHP as it
00:51:28.330 00:51:28.340 relates to you know significant standby
00:51:30.700 00:51:30.710 charges if you're in an unregulated
00:51:32.530 00:51:32.540 environment certainly those are
00:51:33.850 00:51:33.860 something to consider but maybe not as
00:51:36.610 00:51:36.620 detrimental to the project economics as
00:51:38.890 00:51:38.900 they would be in a regulated environment
00:51:54.360 00:51:54.370 in financing regarding Penn State's
00:51:57.640 00:51:57.650 efforts specifically its financing an
00:52:00.550 00:52:00.560 obstacle for the next stage of the
00:52:02.110 00:52:02.120 project and has the University explored
00:52:04.840 00:52:04.850 third-party financing options why you
00:52:09.310 00:52:09.320 want to keep the project on your own
00:52:10.960 00:52:10.970 balance II traditionally when we do
00:52:14.800 00:52:14.810 projects related with energy savings or
00:52:17.770 00:52:17.780 energy performance contracting we self
00:52:20.770 00:52:20.780 fund that money out of our utility
00:52:22.960 00:52:22.970 budget because pay for the project are
00:52:25.630 00:52:25.640 the utility budget savings hits that
00:52:28.030 00:52:28.040 utility budget so in essence you're
00:52:30.190 00:52:30.200 having a zero dollar effect to the
00:52:32.890 00:52:32.900 budget so complicated third party
00:52:36.640 00:52:36.650 agreements have just kept us from going
00:52:40.030 00:52:40.040 with that kind of option since we can do
00:52:42.940 00:52:42.950 it in-house because the second CT was
00:52:47.290 00:52:47.300 not in the original design for our next
00:52:50.950 00:52:50.960 project we are looking at financing it
00:52:54.520 00:52:54.530 in another way and right now it looks
00:52:57.760 00:52:57.770 like the energy projects the energy
00:53:00.940 00:53:00.950 which we require an eight-year payback
00:53:04.150 00:53:04.160 it looks like that project could meet
00:53:06.790 00:53:06.800 those requirements by
00:53:08.270 00:53:08.280 initially and economically our question
00:53:10.910 00:53:10.920 is do we take that twenty million
00:53:13.220 00:53:13.230 dollars and spend it on the CTE or do we
00:53:15.530 00:53:15.540 put those twenty million dollars into
00:53:17.180 00:53:17.190 building improvements so that's the part
00:53:19.550 00:53:19.560 that we're trying to find the right
00:53:22.490 00:53:22.500 answer for right now thank you Laura
00:53:29.570 00:53:29.580 that's been fantastic
00:53:30.950 00:53:30.960 well with that answer our time for Q&A
00:53:33.500 00:53:33.510 has pretty much come to an end
00:53:35.030 00:53:35.040 I'd like to notify everyone that all
00:53:36.890 00:53:36.900 content listed the questions submitted
00:53:38.930 00:53:38.940 during today's webinar will be
00:53:40.610 00:53:40.620 consolidated into a soon a document and
00:53:43.240 00:53:43.250 distributed to all attendees with
00:53:45.230 00:53:45.240 information that we mentioned at the
00:53:46.520 00:53:46.530 beginning of the webinar so keep an eye
00:53:48.500 00:53:48.510 out for an email from the EPA
00:53:49.850 00:53:49.860 partnership with additional information
00:53:51.610 00:53:51.620 Jay Paul Laura thank you very much for
00:53:56.060 00:53:56.070 making your expertise available by
00:53:57.920 00:53:57.930 participating in today's webinar
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