/ News & Press / Video / Epiosode 25 - Boilers 101 - How To Heat Your Home
Epiosode 25 - Boilers 101 - How To Heat Your Home
WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en
00:00:00.230 [Music] 00:00:03.76000:00:03.770 hi there and welcome to episode 25 of 00:00:07.94000:00:07.950 the green room I am today JAMA James 00:00:10.40000:00:10.410 hello James hi Nick we're here with 00:00:16.70000:00:16.710 Harry as well I know 00:00:18.05000:00:18.060 still off camera yes eventually then 00:00:22.34000:00:22.350 we're getting closer maybe the mystery 00:00:24.76900:00:24.779 of it maybe in Christmas the big reveal 00:00:29.34900:00:29.359 how are you guys 00:00:31.18900:00:31.199 I'm very well had a very good few days 00:00:33.40000:00:33.410 with some some of our supporters how do 00:00:36.31900:00:36.329 you say greet with Korean supporters 00:00:37.88000:00:37.890 yeah some of my fans just out in Europe 00:00:41.18000:00:41.190 a little bit you know yeah yeah yeah 00:00:45.70900:00:45.719 because it's so tricky and be so much 00:00:47.45000:00:47.460 traffic on the roads these days better 00:00:48.88000:00:48.890 folks probably easier so yeah a very 00:00:51.83000:00:51.840 good few days I was looking forward to 00:00:53.72000:00:53.730 this podcast actually good to weekly 00:00:56.20900:00:56.219 relief yes it is yeah and I think it was 00:00:59.99000:01:00.000 follow on a little bit what we talked 00:01:01.52000:01:01.530 about last episode the last episode was 00:01:03.26000:01:03.270 all about tips and tricks of how do you 00:01:05.75000:01:05.760 you know prepare for winter and stuff 00:01:07.52000:01:07.530 right and so there's this week we're 00:01:09.20000:01:09.210 gonna pick our one key aspect what we 00:01:10.82000:01:10.830 talked about just explore detail on that 00:01:12.67900:01:12.689 aspect is boilers I looked around there 00:01:15.92000:01:15.930 nervously boilers so yes we're gonna 00:01:19.24900:01:19.259 discuss all things heating boilers and 00:01:21.77000:01:21.780 so this hopefully podcast is going to be 00:01:25.01000:01:25.020 useful for people looking at your 00:01:27.23000:01:27.240 heating system someone has a porter in 00:01:28.85000:01:28.860 the house and wondering what to do with 00:01:31.60900:01:31.619 it all essentially shall we do just you 00:01:34.64000:01:34.650 know they go good and then the reason 00:01:37.34000:01:37.350 that I wanted to mention that is because 00:01:38.39000:01:38.400 you nail a few facts for me so I think 00:01:41.30000:01:41.310 there's some record listeners on our 00:01:43.34000:01:43.350 podcast we're doing the duel right now 00:01:46.06900:01:46.079 and how are they listening to us they 00:01:48.17000:01:48.180 are listening to us why several 00:01:50.09000:01:50.100 mechanisms no they are listening to us 00:01:52.73000:01:52.740 via podcasting sort of what we call yeah 00:02:06.10000:02:06.110 so we you can listen to us you can 00:02:10.07000:02:10.080 subscribe to us on 00:02:12.90000:02:12.910 Paul podcasts Spotify stitcher pod bean 00:02:17.25000:02:17.260 and I think a lot of people now are 00:02:19.77000:02:19.780 watching us radio as well and on tune in 00:02:23.31000:02:23.320 radio sorry and the easiest ways 00:02:25.29000:02:25.300 actually goes to the green age website 00:02:26.73000:02:26.740 the green age website if you go for top 00:02:28.44000:02:28.450 right there is a button that says 00:02:30.75000:02:30.760 podcasts and you can click on that and 00:02:33.60000:02:33.610 then subscribe to any of those different 00:02:35.73000:02:35.740 apps Thank You Harry for that then you 00:02:39.57000:02:39.580 can listen to us on the commute or 00:02:41.46000:02:41.470 whatever and hopefully there will be 00:02:44.40000:02:44.410 useful I mean if they want to watch us 00:02:49.55000:02:49.560 YouTube that's the place right yeah do 00:02:52.65000:02:52.660 linguist comment and questions and fever 00:02:55.14000:02:55.150 okay we do we do seem to be getting a 00:02:56.97000:02:56.980 lot a lot more than and you know 00:02:59.16000:02:59.170 harry between Harry and all of us you 00:03:01.56000:03:01.570 know we tried our best to come back to 00:03:03.21000:03:03.220 you and the feedback tends to be largely 00:03:06.06000:03:06.070 positive that fact yeah my mom thinks 00:03:08.82000:03:08.830 it's great yeah exactly I think though 00:03:10.68000:03:10.690 we're getting some we're getting some 00:03:12.27000:03:12.280 questions that we will endeavor to 00:03:14.07000:03:14.080 answer in future episodes but back to 00:03:17.10000:03:17.110 heating Tony what's been background yes 00:03:20.55000:03:20.560 so boilers or you say probably from 00:03:25.77000:03:25.780 1970s onwards in terms of mass adoption 00:03:28.53000:03:28.540 yes obviously those boilers before that 00:03:30.78000:03:30.790 but in terms of gas boilers because it 00:03:34.11000:03:34.120 coincided with a large discovery of 00:03:37.44000:03:37.450 offshore gas in the North Sea so before 00:03:41.91000:03:41.920 that we all thought it would be nuclear 00:03:43.26000:03:43.270 with storage heaters yeah but then you 00:03:46.41000:03:46.420 know we may make that discovery of gas 00:03:47.91000:03:47.920 help the economy somewhat and from a 00:03:50.61000:03:50.620 domestic perspective a lot of 00:03:52.38000:03:52.390 installations of gas boilers because 00:03:56.46000:03:56.470 obviously the fuel is quite cheap so 00:03:58.94900:03:58.959 very easy to run etc etc and then over 00:04:02.13000:04:02.140 the years the efficiency of that 00:04:04.41000:04:04.420 technology has got better and better and 00:04:06.96000:04:06.970 right now they are incredibly efficient 00:04:08.82000:04:08.830 incredibly easy to run and pretty much 00:04:11.55000:04:11.560 up and down the country so how many 00:04:13.17000:04:13.180 boilers get the gas and 27 million 26 00:04:23.96900:04:23.979 million boilers 00:04:25.53000:04:25.540 every 27 by the other thing it might be 00:04:27.75000:04:27.760 it might be becomes in 2017 which is the 00:04:31.02000:04:31.030 last one we have days here there was one 00:04:33.00000:04:33.010 point six million new boilers installed 00:04:35.43000:04:35.440 so that was a lot of busy gas engine 00:04:37.86000:04:37.870 isn't there and so basically I think if 00:04:40.86000:04:40.870 you look at a number of homes the number 00:04:42.36000:04:42.370 of boilers is a pretty it's all my 00:04:44.16000:04:44.170 second hundred percent correlation I 00:04:45.48000:04:45.490 know there are different heating systems 00:04:46.71000:04:46.720 in there but most people have a gas 00:04:49.56000:04:49.570 boiler yeah or an oil burner no I should 00:04:52.17000:04:52.180 say and so that is providing or water 00:04:54.36000:04:54.370 and heating for their homes so this 00:04:56.10000:04:56.110 hopefully is relevant this podcast for 00:04:58.14000:04:58.150 for loads of people so okay so just 00:05:02.79000:05:02.800 before we get to the different types the 00:05:05.34000:05:05.350 main distinction historically is being 00:05:08.24000:05:08.250 the advent of the condensing boiler so 00:05:12.60000:05:12.610 there was a big kind of switch about 00:05:14.43000:05:14.440 10-15 years ago from non condense and 00:05:16.53000:05:16.540 condensing so what would you say the 00:05:18.39000:05:18.400 main difference is between the two so I 00:05:21.39000:05:21.400 said when a boiler burns it is burning 00:05:23.67000:05:23.680 sorry so when a boiler burn when they 00:05:32.04000:05:32.050 when the gas burns and the boiler 00:05:33.98000:05:33.990 produces you know we produce hot water 00:05:36.66000:05:36.670 basically there are they used to be and 00:05:40.47000:05:40.480 the sillies lots of exhaust fumes that 00:05:42.87000:05:42.880 come out exhaust gases that come out and 00:05:44.85000:05:44.860 now what they're doing now in condensing 00:05:48.24000:05:48.250 boilers is using the heat from those 00:05:51.36000:05:51.370 gases from the exhaust gases and using 00:05:54.75000:05:54.760 that to heat the water before it goes 00:05:56.28000:05:56.290 back into the boiler so basically 00:05:58.17000:05:58.180 previously boiler turns on gas burns 00:06:01.74000:06:01.750 heats water and then the exhaust fumes 00:06:04.08000:06:04.090 just come out now they take the heat in 00:06:06.60000:06:06.610 the exhaust fumes and then heats the 00:06:08.79000:06:08.800 water before it goes back into the 00:06:10.05000:06:10.060 boiler so that is a condensing boiler so 00:06:12.81000:06:12.820 so are cases you'd say roughly mains 00:06:15.45000:06:15.460 water temperature you know may vary say 00:06:18.30000:06:18.310 10 to 20 degrees so I guess if you're 00:06:20.82000:06:20.830 going from 10 20 degrees to 80 90 00:06:23.91000:06:23.920 degrees that's that's a big step yeah 00:06:26.16000:06:26.170 but say from those gas recycle gases if 00:06:29.88000:06:29.890 it's even those between 90 degrees yeah 00:06:33.15000:06:33.160 then to go for 250 - yeah yeah I mean 00:06:35.43000:06:35.440 there's a lot less energy is more 00:06:36.96000:06:36.970 efficient yeah basically that's it and I 00:06:39.12000:06:39.130 did 00:06:39.54000:06:39.550 it's it's very very minor in fact the 00:06:42.51000:06:42.520 temperature increase however the the 00:06:45.60000:06:45.610 savings and the efficiency you know will 00:06:47.70000:06:47.710 well up into the 90% now from boiler so 00:06:50.28000:06:50.290 every unit of gas that is burn you are 00:06:53.04000:06:53.050 potentially getting 93 94 percent sort 00:06:56.58000:06:56.590 of units of useful heat so that's a bit 00:06:59.94000:06:59.950 prettier it's almost one-to-one so when 00:07:02.22000:07:02.230 people talk about how efficient 00:07:03.66000:07:03.670 electricity is yes it's true it's always 00:07:05.49000:07:05.500 one to one I mean let's do it he pumps I 00:07:08.04000:07:08.050 let's don't we heat bombs so but I mean 00:07:11.67000:07:11.680 boys they're not too far thanks no 00:07:13.50000:07:13.510 they're not they're not and that's and 00:07:14.91000:07:14.920 when you look at the cost of gas 00:07:16.35000:07:16.360 compared to the cost of electricity then 00:07:19.20000:07:19.210 it sort of further reinforces why people 00:07:22.38000:07:22.390 go for gas boilers because you know gas 00:07:24.93000:07:24.940 is about three and a half billion of 00:07:26.34000:07:26.350 electricity is about 12 feet 12 to 15 00:07:28.65000:07:28.660 feet right so it's about a third quarter 00:07:31.80000:07:31.810 of the price gas so it is a lot cheaper 00:07:33.72000:07:33.730 to heat your home in that way it's 00:07:36.51000:07:36.520 slightly ironic however that in our 00:07:40.26000:07:40.270 energy mix so if you look at UK for 00:07:43.38000:07:43.390 example the amount of electricity that 00:07:45.84000:07:45.850 we get from gas power plants is enormous 00:07:49.17000:07:49.180 yeah 00:07:50.22000:07:50.230 so we're still using even if you're 00:07:52.68000:07:52.690 using electric in your house electricity 00:07:54.57000:07:54.580 in your house muscle that electricity is 00:07:56.82000:07:56.830 from gas anyway so selling gas come into 00:08:00.24000:08:00.250 a house and heating it it's just gas 00:08:02.43000:08:02.440 electric and then into a house so it's 00:08:04.98000:08:04.990 it's a bit weird and it's funny so if 00:08:07.17000:08:07.180 you look at the big picture there seems 00:08:09.03000:08:09.040 to be a big confusion in terms of the 00:08:12.30000:08:12.310 policy mix so while on the one hand you 00:08:15.78000:08:15.790 get certain aspects of government policy 00:08:17.67000:08:17.680 going well you know we need to move 00:08:19.08000:08:19.090 towards more gas I you know the fracking 00:08:21.66000:08:21.670 a spring and the fact that you know it's 00:08:23.19000:08:23.200 it's a lot lot less polluting 00:08:26.94000:08:26.950 hydrocarbon yeah but it is in the same 00:08:29.07000:08:29.080 family as oil and coal and absolutely 00:08:31.23000:08:31.240 yeah but then on the other hand there's 00:08:33.90000:08:33.910 a movement say rock you know we need 00:08:35.45000:08:35.460 none at all you know no hydro comes at 00:08:37.98000:08:37.990 all and we need to move fully to you 00:08:39.93000:08:39.940 know renewable energy and that sort of 00:08:41.76000:08:41.770 stuff but I think the the and it's 00:08:44.52000:08:44.530 always a classes so so you you can't get 00:08:46.68000:08:46.690 this dude duplicity in terms of but 00:08:48.90000:08:48.910 there's other there's also 00:08:50.21000:08:50.220 cuz I know the government and we're 00:08:51.37900:08:51.389 gonna talk about it shortly but the 00:08:52.42900:08:52.439 government are pushing for to get rid of 00:08:54.37900:08:54.389 boilers rid of gas boilers but there is 00:08:57.80000:08:57.810 a min story yet they wanted to Frank 00:08:59.36000:08:59.370 they wanted to Pratt but there's also we 00:09:01.51900:09:01.529 have mechanisms to deliver gas to 00:09:04.24900:09:04.259 properties already in place 00:09:05.72000:09:05.730 yeah so it seems a really weird kind of 00:09:10.87900:09:10.889 thing and it's gonna be a hugely 00:09:12.41000:09:12.420 expensive and why more homes again 00:09:14.72000:09:14.730 connected to the gas network you know 00:09:16.24900:09:16.259 and that hasn't stopped notice you know 00:09:18.05000:09:18.060 how are you get lots of calls about how 00:09:20.42000:09:20.430 do I get a gas connection what's the 00:09:22.06900:09:22.079 answer 00:09:22.57900:09:22.589 you wring your gas distribution network 00:09:25.40000:09:25.410 and I think so no you go on the internet 00:09:27.76900:09:27.779 yes there's four companies that each 00:09:34.16000:09:34.170 cover different areas in the UK and 00:09:36.11000:09:36.120 depending on what area you're in one of 00:09:38.84000:09:38.850 these companies will be the relevant 00:09:40.63900:09:40.649 people to connect you to the gas and 00:09:42.07900:09:42.089 they are the only company that can do it 00:09:43.73000:09:43.740 in each area they have a monopoly only 00:09:45.98000:09:45.990 this company can do it so if you go 00:09:48.01900:09:48.029 online and we'll put a link to the map 00:09:50.62900:09:50.639 or for finding out if you're interested 00:09:53.38900:09:53.399 in getting connected to the gas 00:09:55.18900:09:55.199 distribution network then we'll pop our 00:09:58.10000:09:58.110 link to the map where you can find out 00:09:59.50900:09:59.519 exactly who should be speaking to you 00:10:00.71000:10:00.720 but it'll be one of these four companies 00:10:02.03000:10:02.040 and it's not cheap why don't we should 00:10:04.54900:10:04.559 probably for the fact if you are look if 00:10:06.55900:10:06.569 you don't have gas in your house it is 00:10:08.72000:10:08.730 expensive but it varies or not village 00:10:17.03000:10:17.040 that's never had gas and you want gas 00:10:18.94900:10:18.959 into the village 00:10:19.81900:10:19.829 it'll be incredibly expensive but as a 00:10:21.71000:10:21.720 collective yeah so dependents you know 00:10:24.51900:10:24.529 right so that's kind of a bit of 00:10:26.96000:10:26.970 background so there are lots of 00:10:28.69900:10:28.709 different types of boilers mm-hm yeah so 00:10:30.88900:10:30.899 why don't we just chat very briefly 00:10:33.65000:10:33.660 about the different kinds yes and so 00:10:35.66000:10:35.670 just gonna say so in terms of condensed 00:10:37.18900:10:37.199 you want might have to ask me what how 00:10:39.17000:10:39.180 do you know this our boiler we've got 00:10:41.54000:10:41.550 had you know our back see is is a 00:10:42.86000:10:42.870 condensing boiler I say well look you 00:10:44.05900:10:44.069 know when you look at the boiler if you 00:10:45.53000:10:45.540 look at the all the pipes coming in and 00:10:47.74900:10:47.759 out there's a wide outlet pipe little 00:10:50.11900:10:50.129 plastic pipe yes that comes out and then 00:10:52.75900:10:52.769 it's connected to two source that 00:10:56.15000:10:56.160 basically because it obviously you know 00:10:58.05900:10:58.069 vapors gonna condense somewhere nuts 00:11:00.76900:11:00.779 double since we never have 00:11:03.00000:11:03.010 and you know and sometimes you might 00:11:04.20000:11:04.210 have troubles with it so if we have a 00:11:05.51000:11:05.520 particularly cold winter yeah yeah okay 00:11:27.60000:11:27.610 so that leads us um nicely very good so 00:11:32.46000:11:32.470 not to be confused with a condensing 00:11:35.28000:11:35.290 boiler our first type a boiler is a 00:11:37.82000:11:37.830 combi boiler the relation boiler right 00:11:40.98000:11:40.990 so bit of background a combi boiler they 00:11:43.92000:11:43.930 came in two fashions from early 2000 and 00:11:47.30000:11:47.310 basically what you're doing is you're 00:11:49.65000:11:49.660 doing away with all the tanks you need 00:11:52.26000:11:52.270 relatively good water pressure but that 00:11:54.21000:11:54.220 water comes into the house comes so cold 00:11:57.12000:11:57.130 wall to come to the house with the mains 00:11:58.38000:11:58.390 goes through the boiler gets heated up 00:12:00.78000:12:00.790 and it's spat out any syntax for showers 00:12:04.14000:12:04.150 or whatever hot straight away so zonda 00:12:06.81000:12:06.820 mods so you're never storing hot water 00:12:08.67000:12:08.680 so they're a really nice idea so this 00:12:11.61000:12:11.620 office has a combination boiler admin 00:12:14.79000:12:14.800 and so things like flats they're 00:12:17.49000:12:17.500 brilliant because you don't have any 00:12:18.51000:12:18.520 tanks and they are obviously the tech in 00:12:22.02000:12:22.030 them is a bit more developed as it's a 00:12:24.90000:12:24.910 bit yes you've got you've got two two 00:12:28.89000:12:28.900 heat exchangers you've got one for the 00:12:30.72000:12:30.730 hot water and you've got one for the 00:12:31.86000:12:31.870 heating so so it's worth saying so you 00:12:36.15000:12:36.160 know with a combi boiler they're very 00:12:38.40000:12:38.410 very easy if I turn on a tap in a 00:12:41.55000:12:41.560 bedroom in a bathroom and I tell them to 00:12:43.98000:12:43.990 tap in the kitchen it will split that 00:12:46.47000:12:46.480 feat right so you might suddenly your 00:12:48.66000:12:48.670 shower your tap is dripping out both of 00:12:51.75000:12:51.760 them because you've taken not water when 00:12:53.76000:12:53.770 you split it between the two taps the 00:12:55.77000:12:55.780 combi boiler is the one where if your 00:12:58.05000:12:58.060 brother is in the shower you can turn on 00:13:00.09000:13:00.100 the hot taps of it his shower suffers 00:13:02.73000:13:02.740 exactly and but but likewise and so if 00:13:06.06000:13:06.070 I've got the heater on if it's really 00:13:07.62000:13:07.630 really cold them and it's unlikely house 00:13:09.15000:13:09.160 is going 00:13:09.54000:13:09.550 called backwardly but if I've got the 00:13:10.88900:13:10.899 heating on and I want to go and jump in 00:13:12.99000:13:13.000 the shower my heat it will turn off the 00:13:16.01900:13:16.029 shower will get hot while I'm in the 00:13:18.44900:13:18.459 shower there's no heating there's no hot 00:13:20.37000:13:20.380 water running through the radiator 00:13:21.57000:13:21.580 system because it has to be one or other 00:13:23.78000:13:23.790 and so that's kind of a couple of the 00:13:27.69000:13:27.700 downsides but I think in terms of II 00:13:29.46000:13:29.470 what that really wants I'll tell you the 00:13:31.76900:13:31.779 answer as well so so so our house has 00:13:34.80000:13:34.810 had to think to swaps already because 00:13:38.60000:13:38.610 basically the old come before the back 00:13:42.06000:13:42.070 see one we had it just kept on we just 00:13:44.51900:13:44.529 have to keep on replacing the heat 00:13:45.60000:13:45.610 exchanger and what the plumber said to 00:13:47.04000:13:47.050 me was it's it's a bugger if you've got 00:13:49.46000:13:49.470 filth in your heating system so we have 00:13:52.13900:13:52.149 to have it you know pressured out and 00:13:54.09000:13:54.100 you know the whole thing drained and re 00:13:57.60000:13:57.610 chemicalized to finally have you know 00:13:59.69900:13:59.709 this one that's doesn't suit you this 00:14:01.41000:14:01.420 touchwood okay so going on you know 00:14:03.72000:14:03.730 after five years so actually if the 00:14:05.85000:14:05.860 conditions are right this install 00:14:07.01900:14:07.029 correctly doesn't there's no reason to 00:14:08.63900:14:08.649 you know to suggest and it won't work 00:14:10.65000:14:10.660 properly because you know we do get 00:14:11.81900:14:11.829 people writing on various blogs and 00:14:15.90000:14:15.910 stuff saying you know how they've always 00:14:16.82900:14:16.839 got had problems with their combination 00:14:18.69000:14:18.700 boiler and having to kind of bugger cuz 00:14:20.57900:14:20.589 it you know can go wrong but so you know 00:14:24.72000:14:24.730 provided you service it and you know you 00:14:27.42000:14:27.430 keep it in good Nick and this shouldn't 00:14:28.88900:14:28.899 be a reason why it won't come won't last 00:14:31.13900:14:31.149 test of time mmm-hmm and I think if I 00:14:33.48000:14:33.490 think if you've got you know if storage 00:14:35.88000:14:35.890 is limited in your fear of flat or 00:14:37.71000:14:37.720 whatever and you want to save a bit of 00:14:39.15000:14:39.160 space a company boiler is a really nice 00:14:41.55000:14:41.560 idea I think can work really really well 00:14:44.04000:14:44.050 they can you can get different capacity 00:14:46.31900:14:46.329 and get different sized boilers and so 00:14:48.21000:14:48.220 if your heat demands a bit high and a 00:14:50.19000:14:50.200 bigger boiler you still don't have the 00:14:52.35000:14:52.360 tails so it's a nice idea if you have 00:14:55.56000:14:55.570 one of the other types of Porter we're 00:14:56.73000:14:56.740 going to talk to talk about in a second 00:14:58.86000:14:58.870 it is a bit more expensive because of 00:15:01.07900:15:01.089 their pipeline changes of suddenly 00:15:03.06000:15:03.070 losing the tanks it's relatively 00:15:06.15000:15:06.160 expensive to swap from say a sort of 00:15:08.25000:15:08.260 regular boiler with a cold water tanks 00:15:10.17000:15:10.180 and all those things to economy right 00:15:12.72000:15:12.730 but if you have an old Kumbi you thought 00:15:15.18000:15:15.190 to a new company so let's talk about two 00:15:17.91000:15:17.920 types of cost and so first one so if 00:15:20.46000:15:20.470 you're going from the first example that 00:15:21.93000:15:21.940 you just said so you want to get rid of 00:15:23.36000:15:23.370 hot tank all of your tax base can 00:15:25.91000:15:25.920 reroute the piping systems it's a 00:15:27.95000:15:27.960 combination we're a looot so so 00:15:34.67000:15:34.680 combination swap will roughly set you 00:15:37.22000:15:37.230 back and this is just an average of 00:15:38.51000:15:38.520 course this is going from an existing 00:15:39.82900:15:39.839 coming to a new company from a 00:15:41.66000:15:41.670 gravity-fed system fight so you get rid 00:15:43.97000:15:43.980 of the cold cavalry attacks yeah and 00:15:46.57900:15:46.589 you're rebooting the pipe 1 to 2 the new 00:15:49.01000:15:49.020 boiler so it's gonna roughly cost you 00:15:50.93000:15:50.940 about three and a half thousand pounds 00:15:52.10000:15:52.110 yeah it's about two thousand pounds for 00:15:53.84000:15:53.850 the boiler unit and about one and a half 00:15:55.37000:15:55.380 thousand pounds for the for the 00:15:57.89000:15:57.900 changeover yeah I think the yes I think 00:16:00.98000:16:00.990 two thousand pounds is relatively high 00:16:03.17000:16:03.180 in terms of materials and stuff but it's 00:16:05.15000:16:05.160 it's so because the boilers are coming 00:16:06.44000:16:06.450 at about a thousand pounds now but all 00:16:08.21000:16:08.220 the additional pipe work is such a 00:16:09.89000:16:09.900 copper pipe is seriously expensive from 00:16:11.87000:16:11.880 that so yeah exactly 00:16:14.42000:16:14.430 whereas if you're going from a combi to 00:16:15.82900:16:15.839 a combi what kind of cost ie I've got a 00:16:18.05000:16:18.060 combi boiler at the moment I want to 00:16:19.49000:16:19.500 just get a new one because it's old 00:16:20.99000:16:21.000 so I'd say about 1500 about 2,000 pounds 00:16:24.68000:16:24.690 depending upon the model type we're 00:16:26.75000:16:26.760 gonna get loads of comments yeah people 00:16:28.88000:16:28.890 saying oh my god I've just got the 00:16:30.65000:16:30.660 biggest clam ever 00:16:31.93000:16:31.940 guys this is a guide right so if you've 00:16:35.42000:16:35.430 got bigger quotes get more quotes and if 00:16:38.60000:16:38.610 you've come to British Gas get other 00:16:40.49000:16:40.500 quotes I don't wanna be rude about 00:16:42.44000:16:42.450 British Gas I just have been but you 00:16:44.63000:16:44.640 know they they chose a premium because 00:16:46.22000:16:46.230 they don't buy over a twisting gas term 00:16:48.94900:16:48.959 I cut you off them I believe in for this 00:16:50.51000:16:50.520 yeah so anyway that's combi boiler yeah 00:16:54.82900:16:54.839 happy and so they but they're running 00:16:58.07000:16:58.080 efficiency wise now so a condensing 00:17:01.01000:17:01.020 combi boiler alright is running 00:17:04.46000:17:04.470 overnight so it's basically born you 00:17:11.12000:17:11.130 know if gas is turning into kind of 0.9 00:17:14.00000:17:14.010 plus units of useful Heat so they're 00:17:17.00000:17:17.010 really really good way to produce the 00:17:19.69900:17:19.709 hot water so then we go into the more 00:17:22.13000:17:22.140 traditional system right and that is a 00:17:24.29000:17:24.300 heat on your regular boiler now these 00:17:27.16900:17:27.179 have been about forever and I can say 00:17:29.33000:17:29.340 that because we've gone up done these 00:17:30.41000:17:30.420 end 00:17:30.77000:17:30.780 hmm and we have seen I've seen some 00:17:33.87000:17:33.880 kestrels 7ms how the bird of prey is 00:17:36.30000:17:36.310 just but also cool they are loose is 00:17:41.01000:17:41.020 very old boilers pretty much but the 00:17:46.02000:17:46.030 thing is are really old ones they keep 00:17:47.37000:17:47.380 running the the issue is number one 00:17:50.85000:17:50.860 they're not condensing and it's very 00:17:54.48000:17:54.490 very difficult number two to get spin 00:17:56.70000:17:56.710 other ones that you know the server's 00:17:58.08000:17:58.090 always to worry when you want to have 00:17:59.34000:17:59.350 the they say the world had this boiling 00:18:01.59000:18:01.600 for 30 years yeah you know and I've done 00:18:03.27000:18:03.280 that to service it no attacks mating 00:18:04.86000:18:04.870 great Makos to break under I think 00:18:13.47000:18:13.480 that's absolutely what they do because 00:18:15.24000:18:15.250 it's a bit stupid and it's sad there's 00:18:17.94000:18:17.950 actually a word for this my can never 00:18:19.29000:18:19.300 remove all of this and there's a term 00:18:20.85000:18:20.860 for it but you but of course you want it 00:18:23.70000:18:23.710 to break in 10-15 years because 00:18:25.47000:18:25.480 otherwise you've not gonna have a 00:18:27.51000:18:27.520 business that 1.6 million boilers it got 00:18:30.45000:18:30.460 replaced in 2017 you'd be replacing 50 00:18:33.03000:18:33.040 or this one in 2018 so it's not what 00:18:36.36000:18:36.370 they have to have that but so these he 00:18:40.47000:18:40.480 only bought the regular boilers are here 00:18:42.18000:18:42.190 only mourners they basically so you have 00:18:44.76000:18:44.770 your boiler unit which tells me that 00:18:47.07000:18:47.080 covered someone um and that is the 00:18:50.37000:18:50.380 heating the water right and then you 00:18:52.08000:18:52.090 have a tank you'd normally have a hot 00:18:53.58000:18:53.590 water tank we do have almost tank 00:18:55.41000:18:55.420 somewhere in the house now that hot 00:18:57.93000:18:57.940 water tank the pressure the forces the 00:19:01.74000:19:01.750 hot water out around the house and to 00:19:03.33000:19:03.340 heating systems is normally caused by 00:19:06.39000:19:06.400 the difference in height between your 00:19:07.92000:19:07.930 hot water tank and cold water tanks in 00:19:09.60000:19:09.610 the roof high gravity right gravity so 00:19:12.00000:19:12.010 you want to us why traditionally there 00:19:13.95000:19:13.960 the coal tank is up in the loft because 00:19:15.68000:19:15.690 don't have maintained the water gonna 00:19:18.24000:19:18.250 drop down to your yeah we so we 00:19:20.97000:19:20.980 installed this is not correlated the 00:19:22.77000:19:22.780 winds told a toilet with a stony higher 00:19:25.47000:19:25.480 system like an old-fashioned toilet and 00:19:27.39000:19:27.400 you put it the water pressure even from 00:19:29.91000:19:29.920 kind of the extra half meter drop or may 00:19:33.24000:19:33.250 is enormous so if you're going up 00:19:34.98000:19:34.990 another story you know your property the 00:19:37.68000:19:37.690 water pressure is really big 00:19:39.24000:19:39.250 typically on their engines 00:19:42.69000:19:42.700 yeah exactly but dipper typically they 00:19:44.49000:19:44.500 will even though the pressure can be you 00:19:47.43000:19:47.440 know really good in terms of getting the 00:19:49.32000:19:49.330 cold ones take a long way height wise 00:19:51.33000:19:51.340 and away from the whole time they can 00:19:54.51000:19:54.520 put pumps on as well to drive the hot 00:19:56.82000:19:56.830 water showers etc etc so if you've got 00:19:59.79000:19:59.800 one of these systems in your home and 00:20:02.31000:20:02.320 you're worried that the pressure is 00:20:03.78000:20:03.790 really bad you could install the shower 00:20:06.09000:20:06.100 pump and that will pump hot water from 00:20:08.64000:20:08.650 hot water tank to your shower and 00:20:10.44000:20:10.450 massively increase the flow rate if 00:20:12.87000:20:12.880 you're looking for a stronger shower now 00:20:15.21000:20:15.220 these as you say I mean we've seen these 00:20:17.64000:20:17.650 forever in a day but since what we do 00:20:20.19000:20:20.200 I'm Jason yeah and so the traditional 00:20:24.08000:20:24.090 sort of traditional boilers with a 00:20:26.88000:20:26.890 gravity-fed system don't have a I mean 00:20:30.63000:20:30.640 you could you could tell pretty much 00:20:32.01000:20:32.020 straight away because you can see that 00:20:33.42000:20:33.430 the flue type so normally the the old 00:20:35.73000:20:35.740 school ones it was a big open squared 00:20:38.19000:20:38.200 flew somewhere you know axis right 00:20:41.37000:20:41.380 number of tanks as well so yeah and you 00:20:46.41000:20:46.420 know what the surveys i've done in the 00:20:48.90000:20:48.910 past they've found some of them had some 00:20:50.94000:20:50.950 really obscure places yeah yeah so if 00:20:55.17000:20:55.180 you've got one of these um they're 00:20:57.06000:20:57.070 they're relatively simple so they tend 00:20:59.88000:20:59.890 to break less than a combi boiler they 00:21:03.48000:21:03.490 are they still make them obviously so 00:21:06.93000:21:06.940 that's very easy to get a old regular 00:21:10.20000:21:10.210 boiler replace with a new one you can 00:21:12.54000:21:12.550 get condensing versions of these borders 00:21:15.03000:21:15.040 every boiler now that is made is a 00:21:16.83000:21:16.840 condensing boiler I think that since 00:21:18.14000:21:18.150 2007 all boilers are new well there's 00:21:22.17000:21:22.180 2005 where you couldn't install a boiler 00:21:23.88000:21:23.890 that wasn't condensing so don't worry 00:21:25.41000:21:25.420 about that so the efficiency is still 00:21:27.30000:21:27.310 incredibly high the the one well two 00:21:30.51000:21:30.520 downsides to this type of boiler number 00:21:33.18000:21:33.190 one space so I'm suddenly gonna have 00:21:36.03000:21:36.040 unlike a combi boiler 00:21:37.65000:21:37.660 no tanks over my here own little regular 00:21:40.05000:21:40.060 boiler sometimes referred to both names 00:21:41.97000:21:41.980 they I've got a hot water tank and I've 00:21:44.73000:21:44.740 got cold water tanks alright and so this 00:21:46.98000:21:46.990 space mm-hmm now often people don't 00:21:49.89000:21:49.900 store anything in the loft so you've got 00:21:51.24000:21:51.250 no issues here all those tanks yes but 00:21:53.64000:21:53.650 you said normally you know 00:21:55.29900:21:55.309 you need an airing cupboard you have to 00:21:57.39900:21:57.409 have that that has to be available so 00:21:59.44000:21:59.450 that's a bit of a pain the other one the 00:22:02.73900:22:02.749 other big issue with these ones is of 00:22:04.68000:22:04.690 storing hot water yes and that's the 00:22:07.38900:22:07.399 fundamental so typically you heat your 00:22:09.61000:22:09.620 hot water in the morning for an hour in 00:22:11.37900:22:11.389 the evening for an hour mm-hmm that hot 00:22:13.77900:22:13.789 water if it's not used would eventually 00:22:15.46000:22:15.470 go cold whereas a combi boiler is 00:22:17.91900:22:17.929 producing on demand so I only produce 00:22:19.89900:22:19.909 odwar dry news where is this one I'm 00:22:22.21000:22:22.220 storing and then normally I'd say the 00:22:24.51900:22:24.529 feature in these airing cupboards is 00:22:26.23000:22:26.240 while they're fantastic for drying 00:22:28.62900:22:28.639 clothes ya know the winter and stuff 00:22:30.98900:22:30.999 they're terrible at heating losses so so 00:22:34.96000:22:34.970 if you've got a copper tank or just one 00:22:36.87900:22:36.889 of the more traditional tanks and you 00:22:39.99900:22:40.009 know don't have a water jacket or you 00:22:43.77900:22:43.789 know or you do have a hot water jacket 00:22:45.46000:22:45.470 but it's still you know releasing heat 00:22:47.52900:22:47.539 out then you know that's that's heating 00:22:50.01900:22:50.029 losses basically and the second one 00:22:52.23000:22:52.240 another consideration larger spaces so 00:22:54.73000:22:54.740 imagine you've got this I don't know 00:22:56.23000:22:56.240 what 200 liter tank or throatily tank up 00:22:58.53900:22:58.549 like your bedrooms upstairs yeah it can 00:23:03.31000:23:03.320 be you know that they've known to the 00:23:05.59000:23:05.600 pipe segments burst yeah and all that 00:23:08.01900:23:08.029 water I mean that's always that risk so 00:23:10.96000:23:10.970 you might not want to have that risk 00:23:12.85000:23:12.860 yeah above you yeah no I agree the 00:23:15.36900:23:15.379 literal sense the the good there's a 00:23:18.34000:23:18.350 benefit of them that people don't really 00:23:19.96000:23:19.970 think about and is that some people have 00:23:21.70000:23:21.710 really bad water pressure or if you go 00:23:24.12900:23:24.139 til kitchen and in turn the cold water 00:23:26.04900:23:26.059 tap on the water pressure that is behind 00:23:28.53900:23:28.549 you basically total water pressure and 00:23:30.22000:23:30.230 if it flies out the tap you on no issues 00:23:32.61900:23:32.629 alright so a combi boiler would protect 00:23:34.81000:23:34.820 one they need to test it but the combi 00:23:36.66900:23:36.679 boiler sounds like it would work and 00:23:38.20000:23:38.210 assistant boiler which will go on to in 00:23:39.87900:23:39.889 a minute 00:23:40.32000:23:40.330 if the water trickles out that one of 00:23:43.96000:23:43.970 these systems might be the answer mm-hmm 00:23:45.78900:23:45.799 because you don't need the water 00:23:46.77900:23:46.789 pressure because the pressure is made by 00:23:48.90900:23:48.919 your cold water tanks you know being in 00:23:50.83000:23:50.840 the position they are and that is 00:23:52.26900:23:52.279 driving making sort of oppression for 00:23:55.18000:23:55.190 you so that is something that you know 00:23:57.60900:23:57.619 will benefit them 00:24:05.28000:24:05.290 let me tell you when everybody has taken 00:24:08.41000:24:08.420 the showers all in a row then little ol 00:24:10.78000:24:10.790 youngest muggins over here call the 00:24:13.78000:24:13.790 shower yeah yeah how many because 00:24:16.42000:24:16.430 someone but yes absolutely 00:24:17.92000:24:17.930 you're you're limited by the size of 00:24:19.90000:24:19.910 your water weight the water to warm up 00:24:23.20000:24:23.210 again which cause take Tonya it 00:24:25.54000:24:25.550 regulates real life so but you know 00:24:33.94000:24:33.950 they're popular it's it's pretty cheap 00:24:36.91000:24:36.920 again you're looking about 2 grand to go 00:24:39.31000:24:39.320 from a oh you know your old boiler to 00:24:42.94000:24:42.950 replace it with a new type a new one off 00:24:44.92000:24:44.930 the same version yes so this heat on 00:24:47.17000:24:47.180 your regular boiler it's about 2,000 00:24:49.72000:24:49.730 pounds to replace it because yeah 00:24:51.40000:24:51.410 there's they're definitely gonna be work 00:24:53.02000:24:53.030 on the flute and yes if you're too close 00:24:55.69000:24:55.700 to your neighbor you know we get lots of 00:24:57.07000:24:57.080 this you might need a bloom that version 00:24:58.81000:24:58.820 kid but also boilers you know they as 00:25:02.26000:25:02.270 you say no if they're flus need to be a 00:25:05.17000:25:05.180 wave for certain distance so building 00:25:07.12000:25:07.130 regs mail dictate that boy the flus have 00:25:08.83000:25:08.840 to be so this is from Mabus openings and 00:25:11.08000:25:11.090 all sorts of things Angela needs to do 00:25:12.73000:25:12.740 us and your windows and doors and so as 00:25:17.02000:25:17.030 you say that can add to the expense of 00:25:19.48000:25:19.490 doing this but they you know it is a 00:25:23.47000:25:23.480 relatively cheap thing they don't tend 00:25:26.05000:25:26.060 to go wrong as much as combi boards 00:25:27.70000:25:27.710 because there's less going on inside the 00:25:29.20000:25:29.210 boiler itself just literally there's a 00:25:31.39000:25:31.400 mini furnace inside there you know yes 00:25:33.78000:25:33.790 I'm using gas and it's absolutely ting 00:25:36.82000:25:36.830 the water coming and we've screwed us 00:25:38.23000:25:38.240 but the but they you know and all the 00:25:41.29000:25:41.300 companies all the major boiler 00:25:42.43000:25:42.440 manufactures which we'll cover in a 00:25:43.51000:25:43.520 minute create these things right so 00:25:45.70000:25:45.710 they've worked really well and I don't 00:25:48.25000:25:48.260 unfortunately I don't have the split 00:25:50.02000:25:50.030 here of numbers in the UK 00:25:53.44000:25:53.450 maybe Harry big something in terms of 00:25:55.66000:25:55.670 companies regular system but then on 00:25:59.23000:25:59.240 these ones no that's it so we're gonna 00:26:02.68000:26:02.690 move on to 00:26:03.51000:26:03.520 system on vented boilers okay so this is 00:26:07.87000:26:07.880 like basically it's it's a fully sealed 00:26:12.37000:26:12.380 system where as you said before the 00:26:15.13000:26:15.140 water pressure 00:26:15.96000:26:15.970 is is not well will come come to the 00:26:18.99000:26:19.000 water pressure bit but the water 00:26:20.25000:26:20.260 pressure is decent so which pressure has 00:26:22.44000:26:22.450 to be really good but can you also get a 00:26:24.57000:26:24.580 pump you don't pump sorry a your device 00:26:28.59000:26:28.600 you care it's quite rare to get them you 00:26:32.40000:26:32.410 can get a device too basically if the 00:26:34.44000:26:34.450 water pressure coming to a house is 00:26:35.58000:26:35.590 under 1/2 bar something like that it 00:26:37.65000:26:37.660 will store that water and fire it from 00:26:40.56000:26:40.570 this other storage device to your system 00:26:43.41000:26:43.420 yes and kind of pretending that it's 00:26:46.44000:26:46.450 increasing the pressure it's stepping up 00:26:47.88000:26:47.890 the pressure yes if you haven't got the 00:26:50.34000:26:50.350 required pressure in your house just 00:26:51.51000:26:51.520 like their system boiler ok I'd say 00:26:53.70000:26:53.710 because basically what system boiler is 00:26:55.50000:26:55.510 doing so you've got again we've got the 00:26:57.60000:26:57.610 boiler units that's creating the hole 00:26:59.19000:26:59.200 that gets stored in a tank and your cold 00:27:02.25000:27:02.260 water mains pressure comes in to the 00:27:04.50000:27:04.510 bottom of the tank and it's worse hot 00:27:06.51000:27:06.520 water on the top alright so that's how 00:27:08.52000:27:08.530 your system boiler is working so it's on 00:27:10.65000:27:10.660 gravity-fed it's literally water 00:27:12.03000:27:12.040 pressure coming in to the bottom attack 00:27:13.47000:27:13.480 firing all trapper talk so basically 00:27:15.12000:27:15.130 what you're saying there James is if the 00:27:16.95000:27:16.960 water pressure is not great you need to 00:27:18.18000:27:18.190 write letters to your water company you 00:27:20.88000:27:20.890 can yeah it is 00:27:22.32000:27:22.330 so if you you can definitely because 00:27:25.56000:27:25.570 I've done it in my property increase the 00:27:28.20000:27:28.210 water pressure from the mains mm-hmm 00:27:30.93000:27:30.940 it's you have to spend a bit of money 00:27:32.40000:27:32.410 that's the pain that speak to your 00:27:34.29000:27:34.300 company Thames water etc they can 00:27:36.30000:27:36.310 increase water pressure I'm done I'm a 00:27:38.25000:27:38.260 new property but in the last one they 00:27:40.05000:27:40.060 can increase it for you right and so 00:27:42.93000:27:42.940 therefore gives you the higher pressure 00:27:45.21000:27:45.220 coming to your house which allows you to 00:27:46.71000:27:46.720 get both come B's or assistant boilers 00:27:49.32000:27:49.330 okay now the boiler itself is very 00:27:53.70000:27:53.710 similar to your here on your regular 00:27:54.90000:27:54.910 boiler but the difference here is that 00:27:57.48000:27:57.490 we have this big pressurized hot water 00:27:59.67000:27:59.680 tank yes so my new kind of molten copper 00:28:02.55000:28:02.560 tanks you're talking about you may be 00:28:04.35000:28:04.360 familiar with with their hot water 00:28:05.46000:28:05.470 jackets these things look they look much 00:28:10.20000:28:10.210 more solid is that fair I mean I don't 00:28:12.45000:28:12.460 know how to describe having and I 00:28:13.80000:28:13.810 suppose then the limiting factor is on 00:28:15.69000:28:15.700 the size what you were talking about 00:28:17.16000:28:17.170 because you can get actually you can get 00:28:18.69000:28:18.700 like a 250 300 liter tanks even maybe 00:28:21.84000:28:21.850 even bigger than that so there and if 00:28:23.55000:28:23.560 you've got multiple siblings 00:28:24.60000:28:24.610 you shouldn't in reality run out of 00:28:26.94000:28:26.950 water unless you know you've got 00:28:28.54000:28:28.550 someone in the family who you know 00:28:30.16000:28:30.170 spends about 30 minutes ago 00:28:31.84000:28:31.850 but they these tanks are already 00:28:35.53000:28:35.540 insulated so you don't really have to 00:28:37.39000:28:37.400 worry about heat loss so you don't have 00:28:39.97000:28:39.980 the airing cupboard effect you know you 00:28:41.65000:28:41.660 don't have that warm room you come up to 00:28:45.28000:28:45.290 the tank itself you touch the plastic 00:28:47.86000:28:47.870 casing and it tends to be room 00:28:49.60000:28:49.610 temperature 00:28:50.20000:28:50.210 yeah which tells you actually is it's 00:28:53.02000:28:53.030 it's funny what you said about them 00:28:54.22000:28:54.230 looking more robust because I know that 00:28:56.05000:28:56.060 my grandma when we moved her into a 00:28:57.46000:28:57.470 little cottage she was not happy with 00:28:59.53000:28:59.540 the combi boiler because she was like 00:29:01.33000:29:01.340 all west of the water I don't understand 00:29:03.25000:29:03.260 she really wanted like a big that's fair 00:29:08.98000:29:08.990 enough 00:29:09.21000:29:09.220 they're they're they're brilliant they 00:29:12.37000:29:12.380 need to be installed by it's not just 00:29:15.04000:29:15.050 gas safe you have I have to have an 00:29:16.57000:29:16.580 extra a qualification to them to install 00:29:18.82000:29:18.830 a pressure our system is one thing worth 00:29:21.52000:29:21.530 mentioning the benefits are the hot 00:29:25.69000:29:25.700 water pressure around the house provided 00:29:28.09000:29:28.100 your pressure coming into that your 00:29:29.65000:29:29.660 water pressure come into the house half 00:29:30.97000:29:30.980 Thiessen you can have multiple showers 00:29:34.00000:29:34.010 at the same time it's it's essentially 00:29:35.86000:29:35.870 you know multiple water being delivered 00:29:39.21000:29:39.220 you know perhaps showers to baths at the 00:29:43.33000:29:43.340 same time and there's no knots of 00:29:44.53000:29:44.540 pressure but the other reason is it's a 00:29:47.26000:29:47.270 feature of the hot tank that you get and 00:29:50.85000:29:50.860 so basically you can have a dual dual 00:29:54.10000:29:54.110 feed tank so which then allows you to 00:29:56.53000:29:56.540 get solar thermal yeah so that's that's 00:30:00.40000:30:00.410 the neat stuff about it so actually if 00:30:01.78000:30:01.790 you've got solar thermal panels you just 00:30:03.88000:30:03.890 get these types of tanks but actually 00:30:06.76000:30:06.770 will have a dual feed so one one feed 00:30:09.16000:30:09.170 would take the hot water this heaters 00:30:10.66000:30:10.670 from your cell the thermal panels and 00:30:11.98000:30:11.990 the other one would be where it's topped 00:30:13.60000:30:13.610 I'll confirm boiling their boiler itself 00:30:15.28000:30:15.290 so actually that's quite neat but 00:30:18.16000:30:18.170 obviously you know the cost there will 00:30:19.90000:30:19.910 be a lot greater because of that to run 00:30:21.49000:30:21.500 pipes up to the solar thermal feed to 00:30:24.13000:30:24.140 your roof yeah etc but the system 00:30:26.68000:30:26.690 boilers tend to be found in bigger 00:30:28.72000:30:28.730 properties where there are more 00:30:31.12000:30:31.130 bathrooms exceptexcept so we're a combi 00:30:33.34000:30:33.350 boiler just wouldn't really be 00:30:34.51000:30:34.520 appropriate you know if you've got multi 00:30:36.58000:30:36.590 bathrooms a combi boiler doesn't quite a 00:30:38.74000:30:38.750 lot of acid so it's yeah I mean that 00:30:43.29900:30:43.309 they're very very popular and you may 00:30:46.14900:30:46.159 have heard of the hot water tanks 00:30:48.15900:30:48.169 themselves magnaflow's Joule we 00:30:50.16900:30:50.179 mentioned a few times right the pain and 00:30:51.76000:30:51.770 do one you said and so it's they're just 00:30:55.69000:30:55.700 they're the three main systems so you 00:30:57.82000:30:57.830 got your combi no tax at all you've got 00:31:00.49000:31:00.500 a regular heat only boiler which has the 00:31:02.62000:31:02.630 cold water tanks up and aloft and that 00:31:05.40900:31:05.419 is producing the pressure which is 00:31:07.36000:31:07.370 driving the system and then you have a 00:31:09.01000:31:09.020 system board which is completely sealed 00:31:10.69000:31:10.700 and it's all based on the water pressure 00:31:13.14900:31:13.159 coming into the tank mmm so there's one 00:31:17.74000:31:17.750 thing I'm not quite sure right so when 00:31:19.21000:31:19.220 it comes to the fuel type so you can 00:31:21.34000:31:21.350 have condensing boilers our oil powered 00:31:24.12000:31:24.130 LPG which is if gas but it's instead of 00:31:28.41900:31:28.429 actually getting it from the mains it's 00:31:30.66900:31:30.679 installed somewhere in your property and 00:31:33.85000:31:33.860 then you can have gas no the the would 00:31:39.70000:31:39.710 put the let's bombers biomass boiler 00:31:42.03900:31:42.049 sorry mmm-hmm think about a good week 00:31:44.95000:31:44.960 away yeah but I'm not sure one one farm 00:31:49.14900:31:49.159 look flow and how I'm able to check is 00:31:50.40900:31:50.419 can you get a combination oil fired 00:31:52.63000:31:52.640 boiler I'm gonna say no effort a no cow 00:32:00.15900:32:00.169 no I because I think so gas obviously 00:32:02.35000:32:02.360 the burn it light straightaway yeah 00:32:04.14900:32:04.159 whereas oil I for many do boom it first 00:32:06.46000:32:06.470 tooth in it to then burn it 00:32:09.10000:32:09.110 that's I'm making that up that's 00:32:11.16900:32:11.179 probably yeah but it but it would make 00:32:13.87000:32:13.880 sense so then you know all these three 00:32:21.27900:32:21.289 types that we talked about there's not 00:32:24.01000:32:24.020 necessarily determined by the fuel 00:32:25.24000:32:25.250 subject can have a gas you can have a 00:32:26.47000:32:26.480 LPG and you can have biomass and and 00:32:29.64900:32:29.659 will the the only other thing that I 00:32:33.25000:32:33.260 think we need to make clear is these all 00:32:35.28900:32:35.299 three tiles support or regardless of 00:32:36.82000:32:36.830 what you have is capable of producing 00:32:37.99000:32:38.000 your hot water and does your eating as 00:32:40.38900:32:40.399 well why it says not just one other now 00:32:43.47000:32:43.480 mainly they are they're the hot water is 00:32:46.87000:32:46.880 produced by saying the pellets the gas 00:32:50.44000:32:50.450 you know the LPG etc etc lots of the 00:32:54.04000:32:54.050 tanks if you go with a tank system and 00:32:56.17000:32:56.180 this is a common issue with combi 00:32:57.73000:32:57.740 boilers we need to do costs of systems 00:33:00.43000:33:00.440 but going back to come buy boilers and 00:33:02.08000:33:02.090 one of the issues there is that if your 00:33:05.80000:33:05.810 combi boiler is on the blink 00:33:07.39000:33:07.400 you have no hot water right as soon as 00:33:10.27000:33:10.280 you have a hot water tank in your house 00:33:11.98000:33:11.990 there tends to be an immersion switch 00:33:15.07000:33:15.080 which is basically as it's like a kettle 00:33:17.65000:33:17.660 element going into the middle of the hot 00:33:19.27000:33:19.280 water tank on producing hot water so if 00:33:21.55000:33:21.560 I never a good emergency or you know as 00:33:24.79000:33:24.800 you were saying you're in the shower and 00:33:26.11000:33:26.120 there's no hot water and I want to top 00:33:27.46000:33:27.470 it up really quickly I can either run 00:33:30.28000:33:30.290 the boiler again or I can press this 00:33:31.72000:33:31.730 immersion element and it will heat it 00:33:33.13000:33:33.140 like a kettle is eating or water they 00:33:35.71000:33:35.720 are incredibly expensive to run the 00:33:38.35000:33:38.360 number of properties we've been in and 00:33:40.24000:33:40.250 the immersion switch is on all the time 00:33:41.92000:33:41.930 is unbelievable now hot water tanks have 00:33:45.49000:33:45.500 a thermostat so when will say reach a 00:33:48.16000:33:48.170 temperature that should turn off the 00:33:50.83000:33:50.840 immersion unit but in some cases they're 00:33:53.83000:33:53.840 not there right so these things are 00:33:55.78000:33:55.790 running all the time essentially your 00:33:58.48000:33:58.490 immersion units and that's yeah that's 00:34:00.46000:34:00.470 what we know the people that complain is 00:34:02.23000:34:02.240 at home you know my you know I've got a 00:34:04.12000:34:04.130 gas boiler but my you know the emotion 00:34:08.80000:34:08.810 emotions are there to use when you're 00:34:11.14000:34:11.150 basically your board is broken or you 00:34:13.24000:34:13.250 need a little quick top of hot water a 00:34:16.00000:34:16.010 lot of people don't use did immersion 00:34:19.54000:34:19.550 heaters with the solar panels yes using 00:34:22.66000:34:22.670 things like optimist things are that 00:34:25.12000:34:25.130 yeah which is really clever it's taking 00:34:26.89000:34:26.900 the excess of it just a opinion co2 your 00:34:29.62000:34:29.630 immersion unit the other thing is if you 00:34:31.78000:34:31.790 if you're on economy 7 so far in a dual 00:34:34.54000:34:34.550 tariff 00:34:35.11000:34:35.120 typically in your where your hot water 00:34:37.63000:34:37.640 is located so if I have like electric 00:34:40.09000:34:40.100 storage heaters but I still won't hold 00:34:41.71000:34:41.720 water in my house I can have a hot water 00:34:43.96000:34:43.970 tank that isn't producing 00:34:46.02000:34:46.030 heating because I've got the storage 00:34:47.95000:34:47.960 heaters which isn't heating but at night 00:34:50.02000:34:50.030 when electricity is cheaper it's going 00:34:52.15000:34:52.160 into the immersion and heating model 00:34:53.65000:34:53.660 water and then that's for use during the 00:34:55.69000:34:55.700 day so you get different kind of 00:34:58.23000:34:58.240 different setups and different 00:35:00.10000:35:00.110 properties 00:35:00.53000:35:00.540 is that the emotions all use but if 00:35:02.63000:35:02.640 you've got a gas boiler and it's working 00:35:04.91000:35:04.920 don't use the emotional there's a very 00:35:07.13000:35:07.140 expensive way to eat water that takes 00:35:10.79000:35:10.800 that one system boilers so I mentioned 00:35:12.89000:35:12.900 in there yeah a system boiler is 00:35:15.59000:35:15.600 expensive to install right because 00:35:17.75000:35:17.760 you've got your boiler which is as you 00:35:19.76000:35:19.770 know a thousand pounds plus you've then 00:35:21.44000:35:21.450 got the tank which is almost a thousand 00:35:24.41000:35:24.420 pounds but then if you're getting so the 00:35:26.33000:35:26.340 thermal as well that could be two two 00:35:27.77000:35:27.780 and a half thousand and then but then 00:35:29.03000:35:29.040 you've got all the different point work 00:35:30.11000:35:30.120 it's pressurized the Installer needs a 00:35:32.57000:35:32.580 special qualification and we found that 00:35:34.34000:35:34.350 while a qualification is to install it 00:35:37.91000:35:37.920 so the whole cost of installing these 00:35:39.74000:35:39.750 but also have made spent fine crap and 00:35:41.69000:35:41.700 they also got to be tagged on to a 00:35:44.33000:35:44.340 certain manufacturer as well so it's 00:35:45.65000:35:45.660 someone like Ariston or one we always 00:35:51.14000:35:51.150 talk about which one the hot water tank 00:35:53.57000:35:53.580 make flow so yeah you also got to sit in 00:35:56.69000:35:56.700 their training course as well and 00:35:57.95000:35:57.960 whether you have to be qualified to 00:35:59.39000:35:59.400 install because it's a pressurized 00:36:00.89000:36:00.900 system yeah really really hot water and 00:36:03.14000:36:03.150 it's pressurized so if it goes wrong 00:36:05.00000:36:05.010 it's gonna spray hot water every way you 00:36:06.41000:36:06.420 need to know exactly what you're doing 00:36:07.66000:36:07.670 if you need to check therefore that your 00:36:10.31000:36:10.320 boiler engineer is qualified to install 00:36:13.25000:36:13.260 them so that's or any us safe register 00:36:22.00000:36:22.010 is it what's the pressure on system 00:36:25.48000:36:25.490 qualification okay fine I'll put it in 00:36:29.33000:36:29.340 the comments and put it in the comments 00:36:30.80000:36:30.810 and Savannah been the main types of 00:36:33.95000:36:33.960 boilers he's gonna find in properties do 00:36:35.66000:36:35.670 you own a fireplace bathroom yes so to 00:36:37.66000:36:37.670 survive biomass which we talked about we 00:36:41.66000:36:41.670 talked about the podcast before but 00:36:43.49000:36:43.500 essentially unlike using gas mains or 00:36:45.80000:36:45.810 just gas or oil it's using pellets yeah 00:36:49.10000:36:49.110 so and the I suppose the drawback of 00:36:52.79000:36:52.800 that is you've got to have a certain 00:36:55.31000:36:55.320 type of property type so you can have 00:36:58.10000:36:58.110 the space it's got to be out somewhere 00:37:00.71000:37:00.720 in the countryside because of all the 00:37:02.68000:37:02.690 combustion you can clear the pellets 00:37:05.54000:37:05.550 because the ash to the pellets and ice 00:37:07.52000:37:07.530 yes it was basically you need a lot of 00:37:08.84000:37:08.850 space to store the pellets and then you 00:37:11.00000:37:11.010 need to kind of be constantly feeding it 00:37:13.33000:37:13.340 so 00:37:14.42000:37:14.430 tends to be popular on on sort of rural 00:37:17.03000:37:17.040 properties farms so that's that's one 00:37:25.57900:37:25.589 feature of that and obviously yeah so 00:37:27.44000:37:27.450 then if you're going for one of those 00:37:28.76000:37:28.770 systems again you know they are 00:37:31.70000:37:31.710 incredibly expensive they were really 00:37:34.94000:37:34.950 really popular because the Renewable 00:37:36.55900:37:36.569 Heat Incentive which is a payment 00:37:38.48000:37:38.490 government subsidy essential government 00:37:40.25000:37:40.260 payment for people installed ins for 00:37:43.04000:37:43.050 every unit of hot water they were 00:37:44.80900:37:44.819 producing they were getting paid by the 00:37:46.94000:37:46.950 government and those payments have 00:37:50.18000:37:50.190 stopped but they've gone right right 00:37:54.23000:37:54.240 down and so you just just be careful I 00:37:59.45000:37:59.460 mean you've just got to run the numbers 00:38:00.65000:38:00.660 because they're expensive to install you 00:38:02.72000:38:02.730 know we we were seeing people pay 12 13 00:38:05.54000:38:05.550 grand to get one of these things in they 00:38:07.09900:38:07.109 work well in agricultural settings where 00:38:09.98000:38:09.990 you can use byproducts and whatnot yeah 00:38:20.53000:38:20.540 but most of the smaller domestic ones 00:38:23.39000:38:23.400 tend to only use the tips the little 00:38:27.34900:38:27.359 wood pellets so therefore you're a bit 00:38:29.80900:38:29.819 stuck there even if you have lots of 00:38:31.30900:38:31.319 long toenails contouring with them so 00:38:33.44000:38:33.450 the other type which is quite rare 00:38:36.50000:38:36.510 people for we really take off is the 00:38:38.24000:38:38.250 combined heat and power or the CHP I 00:38:40.60900:38:40.619 think it will really take off I just 00:38:42.89000:38:42.900 don't think it's yeah so is essentially 00:38:47.04900:38:47.059 you've got a combustion process as you 00:38:49.37000:38:49.380 talked about in the boiler process and 00:38:51.31900:38:51.329 as a result of that combustion process 00:38:52.91000:38:52.920 produces team and from that steam that 00:38:55.60900:38:55.619 drives a secondary unit which then 00:38:57.53000:38:57.540 drives a generator and that generator 00:38:59.21000:38:59.220 then produces electricity and that 00:39:02.56900:39:02.579 electricity as a byproducts goes back 00:39:04.60900:39:04.619 into your consumer unit and then 00:39:06.55900:39:06.569 obviously you know compiler things like 00:39:08.39000:39:08.400 lights and electronic units etc it works 00:39:12.41000:39:12.420 the principle works very very well but 00:39:14.48000:39:14.490 if you think about how you use the 00:39:16.19000:39:16.200 boilers domestically you have to be 00:39:19.01000:39:19.020 basically combusting that what the 00:39:21.71000:39:21.720 boiler would have to be working all the 00:39:23.18000:39:23.190 time to generate electricity 00:39:24.41000:39:24.420 ie you have to run the whole wood sad 00:39:27.42000:39:27.430 all the time so where it actually is 00:39:29.46000:39:29.470 very very good is in a commercial 00:39:31.98000:39:31.990 settings and things like swimming pools 00:39:35.00000:39:35.010 places where they use the manufacturing 00:39:38.30900:39:38.319 process so they need to generate heat 00:39:40.65000:39:40.660 pretty much all the time yeah so 00:39:44.66000:39:44.670 commercially very very good and it is 00:39:48.15000:39:48.160 used is used you know extensively when 00:39:50.49000:39:50.500 people are building coming new factories 00:39:52.04900:39:52.059 and things like that the other one is 00:39:55.07900:39:55.089 electric so I saw quite a few of those 00:39:57.00000:39:57.010 in over in East London I was doing an 00:40:00.87000:40:00.880 EPC project recently and yeah the amount 00:40:04.02000:40:04.030 of electric well you know the Fisher 00:40:06.12000:40:06.130 making electric boiler fishes oh yes yes 00:40:14.70000:40:14.710 but yeah so yeah basically electric 00:40:18.51000:40:18.520 boilers they take electricity which is 00:40:21.18000:40:21.190 more expense than gas and that that uses 00:40:23.25000:40:23.260 to then you know your hot water tank if 00:40:26.16000:40:26.170 you have it or you know it can it can be 00:40:29.40000:40:29.410 you know Kate can heat the hot water you 00:40:31.85900:40:31.869 know it's in taneous Li as well but not 00:40:34.23000:40:34.240 that that popular just because the price 00:40:35.76000:40:35.770 of the electricity more likely to have a 00:40:38.67000:40:38.680 store at each as you said because then 00:40:40.47000:40:40.480 you can sort of see 77 was attacked by 00:40:43.14000:40:43.150 the emotion we get a lot of people well 00:40:46.65000:40:46.660 I get a lot of people asking me if they 00:40:48.99000:40:49.000 have an oil boiler and they asked his 00:40:50.94000:40:50.950 worth 00:40:51.51000:40:51.520 swapping able to electric what would you 00:40:53.22000:40:53.230 say depends know a good oil at the 00:40:57.15000:40:57.160 moment cheaper so I would say keep it 00:41:00.53000:41:00.540 dirty service for environmental reasons 00:41:03.45000:41:03.460 if that's the way you're positioned then 00:41:06.18000:41:06.190 why not go hepa and that's so much as an 00:41:10.26000:41:10.270 all born and went to a ground source 00:41:11.70000:41:11.710 heat pump when the Renewable Heat 00:41:14.33900:41:14.349 Incentive was right up there and it paid 00:41:17.84900:41:17.859 for the cost of the heat pump 00:41:19.47000:41:19.480 comfortably and including the 11,000 00:41:22.62000:41:22.630 panels they had to drill and you know 00:41:26.40000:41:26.410 and suddenly for every unit of 00:41:27.90000:41:27.910 electricity you're getting kind of four 00:41:29.54900:41:29.559 and a half units of useful heat so it's 00:41:31.92000:41:31.930 a really clever technology yeah and 00:41:36.83900:41:36.849 that's the change what's a bad boiler I 00:41:38.54900:41:38.559 back for that sorry I'm being facetious 00:41:40.23000:41:40.240 out over 00:41:41.07000:41:41.080 but so they say these are there really 00:41:43.02000:41:43.030 so these are old there they are very old 00:41:47.22000:41:47.230 and when you walk into a property and 00:41:49.32000:41:49.330 you see the kind of gas fireplace you 00:41:51.48000:41:51.490 know they're really yeah I imagine 00:41:53.76000:41:53.770 they're on Coronation Street yeah 00:41:57.47000:41:57.480 they're kind of those really old boiler 00:41:59.79000:41:59.800 set old people really like I can tend to 00:42:02.55000:42:02.560 have then while they're producing you 00:42:06.27000:42:06.280 know they keep heat they also produce 00:42:08.58000:42:08.590 they have a big tank behind them and 00:42:10.53000:42:10.540 they're reducing hot water you cannot 00:42:13.08000:42:13.090 get spares for these things anymore so 00:42:15.30000:42:15.310 people I have back boilers get in touch 00:42:17.55000:42:17.560 with us all the time and want to know 00:42:19.77000:42:19.780 where you can buy spares you can't you 00:42:23.16000:42:23.170 can buy spare parts for them on eBay no 00:42:26.12000:42:26.130 no I faked pot so if you are gonna try 00:42:31.08000:42:31.090 and keep your back her alive by swapping 00:42:36.06000:42:36.070 out parts make sure you go to the actual 00:42:38.25000:42:38.260 manufacturer but but the other thing is 00:42:40.11000:42:40.120 they are not condensing right so they 00:42:44.07000:42:44.080 are old old boiler types and your 00:42:46.92000:42:46.930 efficiency is going to be sort of 60% a 00:42:49.32000:42:49.330 new boiler 90% right so you're getting 00:42:52.20000:42:52.210 essentially 1/3 more bang for your buck 00:42:54.06000:42:54.070 on each unit of gas so please get rid of 00:42:59.01000:42:59.020 your back boarder new boiler is kind of 00:43:04.50000:43:04.510 a hybrid type thing and they talk about 00:43:09.12000:43:09.130 it like it's kind of comfortable cause 00:43:20.97000:43:20.980 it can't see it so one other one what 00:43:25.83000:43:25.840 you know you've probably seen well not 00:43:27.90000:43:27.910 see but it's always come up in this 00:43:29.70000:43:29.710 outhouse but it tends to be a feature in 00:43:31.50000:43:31.510 in high-rises is community boilers yeah 00:43:34.26000:43:34.270 so you can have a community gas gas fed 00:43:37.20000:43:37.210 boiler which is basically it's just 00:43:39.00000:43:39.010 great big it's just a massive boiler 00:43:40.83000:43:40.840 yeah that sits out of the way from from 00:43:43.50000:43:43.510 these flats and then it just powers the 00:43:45.72000:43:45.730 hot water and the and there were lots of 00:43:47.40000:43:47.410 government schemes to replacement 00:43:49.34000:43:49.350 but what surprises behind us as well 00:43:52.23000:43:52.240 yeah basically walk into the properties 00:43:54.54000:43:54.550 and there's no border you can see a tank 00:43:56.46000:43:56.470 or you can see no tank occasionally you 00:43:59.04000:43:59.050 just you know that you have hot water on 00:44:01.08000:44:01.090 demand and they are supplying as you 00:44:04.11000:44:04.120 said by this community borders which I 00:44:05.58000:44:05.590 basically take your gas boiler tums it 00:44:07.86000:44:07.870 by 50 and then that is it and it tends 00:44:10.86000:44:10.870 to be sat on a plant run somewhere on 00:44:12.69000:44:12.700 site somewhere near the flats eccentric 00:44:14.64000:44:14.650 Center get lot of complaints from 00:44:16.82000:44:16.830 residents there we go you know it's not 00:44:20.34000:44:20.350 working stuff or it's too hot oh it's 00:44:22.56000:44:22.570 too hot the air is too expensive that's 00:44:24.84000:44:24.850 the other that's the other thing we so 00:44:26.46000:44:26.470 there's quite a lot speak bar there so 00:44:28.11000:44:28.120 then we need to do heating controls all 00:44:29.61000:44:29.620 sorts of stuff especially before the 00:44:31.86000:44:31.870 cooler weather sets in we're currently 00:44:34.32000:44:34.330 running out of time 00:44:35.52000:44:35.530 rapidly hacking one other boiler with 00:44:38.04000:44:38.050 mist now well we can turn what someone's 00:44:39.90000:44:39.910 someone's gonna have a cop right okay 00:44:41.46000:44:41.470 give it a three favorite boil of 00:44:43.62000:44:43.630 manufacturers yeah yeah sometimes seen 00:45:09.93000:45:09.940 the mints or the granny flats in the 00:45:11.31000:45:11.320 annex friends you wouldn't you would 00:45:15.60000:45:15.610 never think of situation we know really 00:45:19.32000:45:19.330 if I had that house I want to have hot 00:45:20.97000:45:20.980 water there once a month I need to make 00:45:24.18000:45:24.190 a cup of tea because I've been sent 00:45:25.50000:45:25.510 there or you know what I mean I don't 00:45:27.30000:45:27.310 really think I don't think of an obvious 00:45:30.62000:45:30.630 situation three favorite boiler 00:45:34.08000:45:34.090 manufactures go vestment conveyance and 00:45:36.99000:45:37.000 mr. bush what about back seat you've got 00:45:39.96000:45:39.970 bats in your clothes forth basically if 00:45:44.37000:45:44.380 you're gonna go just loads of websites 00:45:46.98000:45:46.990 to do they talk about with the best 00:45:49.50000:45:49.510 boilers etcetera so look something for 00:45:51.56000:45:51.570 my efficiency which most concern is that 00:45:55.68000:45:55.690 they're all really very good but the 00:45:57.69000:45:57.700 best thing to do 00:45:58.73000:45:58.740 look for the warranties and their you 00:46:00.80000:46:00.810 know the guarantees on these boilers so 00:46:02.39000:46:02.400 I had a valent boiler installed and my 00:46:05.03000:46:05.040 came with a 10 year warranty and if it 00:46:07.82000:46:07.830 prayed for labor advance if it breaks 00:46:09.92000:46:09.930 they come and fix it but you have a 00:46:12.77000:46:12.780 service every year yeah but that's not a 00:46:14.96000:46:14.970 bad thing anyway keep it running noisy 00:46:16.85000:46:16.860 accent' etcetera that is what you need 00:46:19.49000:46:19.500 to know for just get something with a 00:46:20.84000:46:20.850 decent warranty or guarantee so if it 00:46:22.79000:46:22.800 does wrong you can get someone out but a 00:46:28.46000:46:28.470 boiler is an expensive investment it is 00:46:30.83000:46:30.840 worth knowing 00:46:33.04000:46:33.050 yeah and if you're not doable every year 00:46:36.92000:46:36.930 you've got to have a significant that's 00:46:41.20000:46:41.210 very good so one yet as you said one 00:46:51.23000:46:51.240 quick thing 2025 hurry 00:46:53.03000:46:53.040 yeah what do we think briefly that's not 00:46:59.78000:46:59.790 gonna happen 00:47:00.29000:47:00.300 yeah there's no new builds in May I 00:47:03.50000:47:03.510 think it will build a new building will 00:47:06.17000:47:06.180 because change your community depends if 00:47:12.41000:47:12.420 it's multi-dwelling terms but the 00:47:13.76000:47:13.770 government doesn't think because it just 00:47:15.08000:47:15.090 says stuff by electricity that comes 00:47:23.63000:47:23.640 from gas burning anyway that's not 00:47:27.92000:47:27.930 that's not the other thing VC's so so 00:47:31.82000:47:31.830 since the minimality efficiency 00:47:33.65000:47:33.660 standards a lot of concern landlords you 00:47:36.56000:47:36.570 know asking alan basically said what can 00:47:39.56000:47:39.570 i do to their property to bring it up to 00:47:41.45000:47:41.460 Annie at least yeah so a boiler 00:47:43.91000:47:43.920 replacement or going from direct 00:47:48.05000:47:48.060 electric heaters to - until gas boiler 00:47:51.74000:47:51.750 would massively increase the EPA agreed 00:47:53.74000:47:53.750 so that's it that's a very good 00:47:55.70000:47:55.710 investment and I'm Harry given that the 00:47:58.22000:47:58.230 minimum efficiency is down is now 00:47:59.42000:47:59.430 stipulate that when you done read the 00:48:02.03000:48:02.040 regulations you have to spend up to 00:48:04.28000:48:04.290 around I mean that you know on a flat 00:48:07.60900:48:07.619 will go a long way to support central 00:48:10.01000:48:10.020 heating in and 00:48:11.14000:48:11.150 the great of a gas boiler so it's a 00:48:12.64000:48:12.650 worthwhile investment particularly as 00:48:14.32000:48:14.330 the energy efficiency standards I just 00:48:16.42000:48:16.430 got a creep up right colors that's it 00:48:18.97000:48:18.980 now it's more than I thought we're gonna 00:48:20.26000:48:20.270 speak like a quick look that's it 00:48:24.25000:48:24.260 anything else we can speak that anything 00:48:27.19000:48:27.200 else next week happy news for next week 00:48:31.00000:48:31.010 happy news have a great week 00:48:35.81000:48:35.820
Office location
Engineering company LOTUS®
Russia, Ekaterinburg, Lunacharskogo street, 240/12