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Is combined heat and power (CHP) right for your business
WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en
00:00:00.030 so obviously here to talk about CHP 00:00:03.50000:00:03.510 combined heat and power there are a 00:00:05.39000:00:05.400 couple projects recent or under under 00:00:09.47000:00:09.480 construction in the state that you'll be 00:00:11.24000:00:11.250 hearing from CHP is combined heat and 00:00:14.72000:00:14.730 power has been a part of our industry 00:00:17.06000:00:17.070 for decades if not well 00:00:20.81000:00:20.820 probably a century however it's really 00:00:24.55000:00:24.560 getting a second look for a few reasons 00:00:27.10900:00:27.119 one is there's perceived electricity 00:00:30.47000:00:30.480 cost benefits I'm not entirely sure 00:00:33.74000:00:33.750 those remain true but that's certainly 00:00:35.99000:00:36.000 an issue it's a much more efficient use 00:00:38.15000:00:38.160 of energy when we take take wood and 00:00:41.29900:00:41.309 make electricity you capture somewhere 00:00:43.04000:00:43.050 around 30% of the energy embodied there 00:00:45.88900:00:45.899 any heat use bumps that up and can do so 00:00:49.25000:00:49.260 significantly also have mill residue 00:00:54.61900:00:54.629 challenges discussed a little bit this 00:00:56.77900:00:56.789 morning the sawmill residue situation we 00:00:59.54000:00:59.550 have will be turning into a crisis in 00:01:01.63900:01:01.649 the spring probably not for everyone but 00:01:04.60900:01:04.619 for some of you and it'll be a difficult 00:01:08.51000:01:08.520 crisis that we can see coming and 00:01:10.73000:01:10.740 frankly can't see how to fix so we're 00:01:16.24900:01:16.259 gonna be hearing from from some leaders 00:01:17.89900:01:17.909 and some real doers in the combined heat 00:01:21.67900:01:21.689 and power space I'm gonna be talking 00:01:23.89900:01:23.909 about their projects but also hopefully 00:01:25.78900:01:25.799 sharing information you can learn not 00:01:27.92000:01:27.930 only about what their projects doing but 00:01:30.05000:01:30.060 how CHP can and can't work in different 00:01:33.98000:01:33.990 situations I'm gonna go ahead and 00:01:36.62000:01:36.630 introduce our first speaker and we're 00:01:39.23000:01:39.240 just going to go ahead in the order that 00:01:40.91000:01:40.920 they were listed so it's my pleasure to 00:01:42.53000:01:42.540 and we'll be hearing from Alden then Bob 00:01:46.31000:01:46.320 Linkletter Chuck Whaley was sappy and 00:01:49.30000:01:49.310 finally been with do-e many of you 00:01:53.09000:01:53.100 probably all of you know Alden Robbins 00:01:55.99900:01:56.009 he is vice president and really you know 00:01:59.99000:02:00.000 in the in the current generation of 00:02:01.99900:02:02.009 leaders at robbins lumber a leading 00:02:04.96900:02:04.979 white pine mill importantly he's also a 00:02:08.54000:02:08.550 partner in George's River Energy why 00:02:11.44900:02:11.459 he's here today it's a 00:02:13.55000:02:13.560 sub ten megawatt and that's an important 00:02:16.33900:02:16.349 number should be discussed a little bit 00:02:17.87000:02:17.880 sub ten megawatt combined heat and power 00:02:20.57000:02:20.580 plant under construction at their site 00:02:23.33000:02:23.340 right now and they'll be utilizing some 00:02:26.24000:02:26.250 of the heat and selling the electricity 00:02:27.47000:02:27.480 so Alden so with our residue situation 00:02:32.12000:02:32.130 and challenge we decided to look at 00:02:34.10000:02:34.110 these different avenues and places to go 00:02:36.25900:02:36.269 and luckily we were able to get in touch 00:02:40.64000:02:40.650 with Robert Linkletter who was already 00:02:44.74000:02:44.750 well down the path of getting his plant 00:02:48.11000:02:48.120 up and going and so we were able to you 00:02:52.10000:02:52.110 know bird dog off him and he was very 00:02:54.17000:02:54.180 helpful in making our decision to put in 00:02:58.43000:02:58.440 a CHP plant we already had the 00:03:00.80000:03:00.810 infrastructure in place we had dump 00:03:03.65000:03:03.660 stations we had warehouses we had yard 00:03:05.53900:03:05.549 space we had steam engineers on on staff 00:03:08.57000:03:08.580 so it was a logical step for us to take 00:03:11.78000:03:11.790 that path wanting to know about energy 00:03:15.55900:03:15.569 use we currently you know as a sawmill 00:03:20.09000:03:20.100 you buy a lot of power about 9.8 million 00:03:24.34900:03:24.359 kilowatts last year and growing every 00:03:27.17000:03:27.180 year it seems like as we add new 00:03:28.78900:03:28.799 buildings and processes but as you know 00:03:31.09900:03:31.109 we're we're starting on this new project 00:03:33.86000:03:33.870 with an eight point five megawatt system 00:03:37.25000:03:37.260 CHP project and experience just what we 00:03:41.33000:03:41.340 had on-site and I wasn't involved with 00:03:44.53900:03:44.549 that project as I said before very level 00:03:47.09000:03:47.100 CHP project experience I'm not an 00:03:50.03000:03:50.040 engineer I'm just in sales and I I say 00:03:54.11000:03:54.120 that every day in our meetings with our 00:03:55.55000:03:55.560 engineers and drawings but you know we 00:03:59.05900:03:59.069 realized we had a problem and we and we 00:04:01.16000:04:01.170 we jumped on it 00:04:03.87900:04:03.889 you know the program that allowed us 00:04:07.03900:04:07.049 really to build a plan of this size was 00:04:09.71000:04:09.720 the 2009 CB rep program it's the same 00:04:13.61000:04:13.620 program that that Bob looked into and 00:04:16.25000:04:16.260 that was a legislative program for those 00:04:19.67000:04:19.680 of you who are not familiar that was 00:04:21.14000:04:21.150 meant to geographically dispersed power 00:04:23.42000:04:23.430 generation in the state of Maine 00:04:25.71900:04:25.729 so the 00:04:27.44000:04:27.450 geographically and also by the by the 00:04:30.20000:04:30.210 sources of that power so they're going 00:04:32.12000:04:32.130 after renewable it had to be under 10 00:04:33.77000:04:33.780 megawatts the power had to be under 10 00:04:35.72000:04:35.730 cents a kilowatt so we found out about 00:04:41.12000:04:41.130 that program after visiting with Bob and 00:04:46.40000:04:46.410 actually while we were on the tour I 00:04:48.56000:04:48.570 found out that the program had reopened 00:04:51.13000:04:51.140 for a brief window a time and we had 00:04:54.53000:04:54.540 about a week to put in our RFP with the 00:04:58.10000:04:58.110 PUC and you had to have full details on 00:05:01.76000:05:01.770 what you were doing for a project the 00:05:03.26000:05:03.270 size of your project what you wanted to 00:05:06.50000:05:06.510 sell your power for how big the project 00:05:08.24000:05:08.250 was gonna be luckily just with a strong 00:05:12.08000:05:12.090 network of friends and associations in 00:05:14.69000:05:14.700 the industry we were able to put 00:05:15.86000:05:15.870 together a strong proposal and we're 00:05:18.89000:05:18.900 successful and getting that proposal to 00:05:23.51000:05:23.520 enter into a long-term power agreement 00:05:25.82000:05:25.830 with central Maine power thermal energy 00:05:31.22000:05:31.230 is very important to our operations you 00:05:34.28000:05:34.290 know not only do we use the steam for 00:05:37.34000:05:37.350 building heat in the winter but also for 00:05:39.29000:05:39.300 our dry kilns I mean white pine is 00:05:41.24000:05:41.250 notoriously difficult to dry and we need 00:05:45.35000:05:45.360 constant steam for the heat for those 00:05:48.74000:05:48.750 kilns that you know obviously as we 00:05:50.81000:05:50.820 intend to grow we intend to use more and 00:05:52.79000:05:52.800 more what have I learned that I didn't 00:05:57.92000:05:57.930 know in the beginning just about 00:05:59.51000:05:59.520 everything I learned it takes a there's 00:06:03.41000:06:03.420 a lot to building a power plant a whole 00:06:05.78000:06:05.790 lot you know it sounded so easy when we 00:06:10.07000:06:10.080 were standing around the table talking 00:06:11.63000:06:11.640 about what we're gonna do was build a 00:06:13.28000:06:13.290 power plant you're I mean we do a lot of 00:06:16.19000:06:16.200 things at the mill as far as you know 00:06:18.41000:06:18.420 put a new carriage tracks or you know 00:06:21.59000:06:21.600 put in pieces of equipment redo the 00:06:23.78000:06:23.790 outfeed a power plants a whole different 00:06:26.63000:06:26.640 scale and it takes a lot of expertise 00:06:29.81000:06:29.820 and so you know going right into the the 00:06:32.99000:06:33.000 last point which is what advice you have 00:06:35.15000:06:35.160 for another company considering CHP you 00:06:39.89000:06:39.900 know having a good team 00:06:41.21000:06:41.220 around you is very important luckily 00:06:45.11000:06:45.120 were able to utilize the wisdom of the 00:06:46.73000:06:46.740 past with my uncle and my father you 00:06:49.79000:06:49.800 know still being on our board and you 00:06:52.55000:06:52.560 know helping to guide us using 00:06:56.77000:06:56.780 associates and friends in the industry 00:06:58.55000:06:58.560 like Bob consultants like Kingsley 00:07:02.78000:07:02.790 you know we're using mid-south 00:07:04.13000:07:04.140 engineering out of well they were 00:07:06.59000:07:06.600 formerly out of Millinocket but now they 00:07:08.21000:07:08.220 have a new office in Orono you know it's 00:07:11.99000:07:12.000 it's quite a task to consider there's a 00:07:14.21000:07:14.220 lot of people at mid-south that have a 00:07:16.46000:07:16.470 lot of experience with power plants so 00:07:18.62000:07:18.630 using an engineering firm to help you 00:07:20.96000:07:20.970 from the beginning to help you design 00:07:23.75000:07:23.760 the plant give you input you know not 00:07:28.22000:07:28.230 only and where it should go but how big 00:07:30.32000:07:30.330 what are you gonna do with the inputs 00:07:31.70000:07:31.710 the outputs um there's a lot of things 00:07:33.65000:07:33.660 to consider as far as assistance you 00:07:42.14000:07:42.150 know not only engineering firm as far as 00:07:45.40900:07:45.419 assistance that we received on the 00:07:46.49000:07:46.500 outside we we did apply for a tiff with 00:07:48.59000:07:48.600 the town that gives benefit to both the 00:07:51.86000:07:51.870 project and the community to help reduce 00:07:55.49000:07:55.500 the tax burden on the town the municipal 00:07:58.13000:07:58.140 sharing as well as as for the project 00:08:00.65000:08:00.660 because you can have tips with credit 00:08:02.03000:08:02.040 enhancements so I would encourage you to 00:08:04.01000:08:04.020 look into those programs there are the 00:08:06.05000:08:06.060 pine tree zones which we are 00:08:07.31000:08:07.320 constructing our plant in a pine tree 00:08:08.90000:08:08.910 zone and I know that's up for debate and 00:08:10.52000:08:10.530 that may not be around much longer n 00:08:13.69000:08:13.700 MTC's is not a route we went the new 00:08:17.18000:08:17.190 market tax credit program however other 00:08:20.48000:08:20.490 projects have gone down that route and 00:08:22.34000:08:22.350 there is a potential source of funding 00:08:23.99000:08:24.000 for these projects the investment tax 00:08:27.44000:08:27.450 credit or the production production tax 00:08:29.96000:08:29.970 credit we are going after the investment 00:08:32.00000:08:32.010 tax credit you have a choice of going 00:08:33.56000:08:33.570 after either or that requires a 00:08:38.30000:08:38.310 significant amount of due diligence on 00:08:40.19000:08:40.200 on your side as far as documenting what 00:08:43.31000:08:43.320 you've done continual progress there 00:08:48.07900:08:48.089 they're sticklers as far as making sure 00:08:50.48000:08:50.490 that you've met all the standards for 00:08:53.06000:08:53.070 that but that is 30 00:08:55.05000:08:55.060 of total project cost that's a 00:08:57.57000:08:57.580 significant chunk when you start talking 00:08:59.46000:08:59.470 about projects that go up in the tens of 00:09:02.31000:09:02.320 millions the CB rep program obviously 00:09:06.15000:09:06.160 helped us go along now that project that 00:09:08.07000:09:08.080 program did sunset wherever you know 00:09:10.01900:09:10.029 there is legislation that has been 00:09:11.49000:09:11.500 tabled until next year which sort of 00:09:13.56000:09:13.570 mirrors that program so that is a 00:09:15.51000:09:15.520 potential opportunity coming up there is 00:09:19.01900:09:19.029 the usda rural energy for America 00:09:20.67000:09:20.680 program that will offer low-interest 00:09:24.18000:09:24.190 loans or backing loans or end also 00:09:27.39000:09:27.400 grants so that is a program that we've 00:09:29.67000:09:29.680 looked into we're still waiting to hear 00:09:31.86000:09:31.870 on that one 00:09:33.98000:09:33.990 fame is out there to give financial 00:09:36.48000:09:36.490 assistance and a whole variety of other 00:09:39.72000:09:39.730 grants out there I mean when you start 00:09:41.51900:09:41.529 doing grant researches I mean there are 00:09:43.71000:09:43.720 people in this room that that's what 00:09:45.39000:09:45.400 they do for a living is help help people 00:09:47.04000:09:47.050 get grants but there are so many out 00:09:50.04000:09:50.050 there it's it's it's hard to fathom so 00:09:52.44000:09:52.450 just knowing what grants are you know 00:09:54.45000:09:54.460 eligible for and that you can go for 00:09:56.67000:09:56.680 that's that's a good road as well 00:09:59.96000:09:59.970 efficiency of main our project was a 00:10:05.31000:10:05.320 little larger in scale as far as what we 00:10:07.02000:10:07.030 did for assistance from them but could 00:10:09.90000:10:09.910 potentially on a smaller scale they're 00:10:11.79000:10:11.800 especially interested in the back 00:10:13.47000:10:13.480 pressure turbine styles or are some of 00:10:15.96000:10:15.970 the smaller turbine installations and 00:10:17.94000:10:17.950 then of course is using our educational 00:10:19.89000:10:19.900 institutions UMaine Maine Maritime 00:10:21.72000:10:21.730 Academy Maine Maritime Academy is really 00:10:24.06000:10:24.070 good on the steam engineer side you mean 00:10:26.97000:10:26.980 there are students out there always 00:10:28.17000:10:28.180 looking for internships as well so just 00:10:30.75000:10:30.760 helping with the staffing some of the 00:10:33.51000:10:33.520 issues we ran into cost of project is 00:10:36.48000:10:36.490 significant so financing that project 00:10:39.18000:10:39.190 and I as I mentioned some of the 00:10:40.59000:10:40.600 resources out there you know that's 00:10:42.30000:10:42.310 going to be the number one hurdle is you 00:10:44.04000:10:44.050 know can we pay for it and how do we pay 00:10:46.19900:10:46.209 for it 00:10:48.23000:10:48.240 interconnection is another one that can 00:10:53.04000:10:53.050 blindside a project where is your 00:10:54.72000:10:54.730 project located how are you gonna put 00:10:57.72000:10:57.730 that power out onto the grid are you on 00:10:59.76000:10:59.770 transmissions lines are you on 00:11:01.29000:11:01.300 distribution lines and believe me before 00:11:03.18000:11:03.190 I didn't know the difference now I do 00:11:04.89000:11:04.900 and it's significant dealing with your 00:11:08.34000:11:08.350 local you 00:11:08.91000:11:08.920 that's a mirror cmp or whoever it's not 00:11:12.84000:11:12.850 easy to get an interconnection agreement 00:11:15.91900:11:15.929 we spent millions of dollars that we 00:11:18.47900:11:18.489 didn't think we were going to have to on 00:11:20.84900:11:20.859 our particular issue and everyone has 00:11:23.18900:11:23.199 their own particular issue and I urge 00:11:26.06900:11:26.079 you that if you're interested in going 00:11:28.16900:11:28.179 down this path you find out quickly what 00:11:30.26900:11:30.279 your issues are going to be and it's 00:11:32.36900:11:32.379 it's hard it's hard to know that from 00:11:34.16900:11:34.179 the beginning we found out that we're on 00:11:36.98900:11:36.999 the end of a very long distribution line 00:11:39.47900:11:39.489 and that distribution line did not have 00:11:41.28000:11:41.290 the capacity to handle the amount of 00:11:44.99900:11:45.009 power that we were awarded to be able to 00:11:47.93900:11:47.949 sell back onto the grid so therefore we 00:11:50.69900:11:50.709 had to rebuild that distribution line 00:11:53.06900:11:53.079 and that's your responsibility to do 00:11:56.78900:11:56.799 that and then there are a whole other 00:11:59.57900:11:59.589 issues as far as operating and 00:12:01.22900:12:01.239 maintenance costs on those lines and it 00:12:03.59900:12:03.609 and it's a whole other arena that just 00:12:05.60900:12:05.619 being people that produce sawdust for 00:12:07.67900:12:07.689 generations we just did not have that 00:12:09.38900:12:09.399 skill set but we had to learn it on the 00:12:11.97000:12:11.980 fly the other part of that CB rep 00:12:15.15000:12:15.160 program is it does require that you are 00:12:17.78900:12:17.799 up in producing power to the grid by the 00:12:20.46000:12:20.470 end of 2018 so we are up against a hard 00:12:22.73900:12:22.749 deadline and getting these issues taken 00:12:27.96000:12:27.970 care of it was very important on that 00:12:31.71000:12:31.720 issue we were very fortunate to have the 00:12:35.36900:12:35.379 services of Eaton Peabody on our side 00:12:37.61900:12:37.629 and they were helpful and moving through 00:12:41.00900:12:41.019 those issues for us I'm happy to say 00:12:43.16900:12:43.179 those are behind us and I am also here 00:12:45.86900:12:45.879 to apologize for the traffic on Route 00:12:47.60900:12:47.619 three for anyone who had to deal with 00:12:49.01900:12:49.029 that this summer going from Augusta to 00:12:50.46000:12:50.470 Belfast because yeah that had partly to 00:12:52.52900:12:52.539 do with our project the community having 00:12:56.60900:12:56.619 community backing very important not 00:12:59.42900:12:59.439 only for Tiff's but just for community 00:13:01.37900:13:01.389 support behind you you know that have 00:13:05.24900:13:05.259 the need and the understanding for what 00:13:07.97900:13:07.989 you know the company's going through and 00:13:09.96000:13:09.970 into and to have that community backing 00:13:11.54900:13:11.559 is very important for public perception 00:13:13.52900:13:13.539 PR permitting obviously it's a power 00:13:17.36900:13:17.379 plant so there's big issues with air big 00:13:20.03900:13:20.049 issues with emissions site location 00:13:24.03000:13:24.040 you know we used different environmental 00:13:28.26000:13:28.270 companies to help us through that 00:13:29.78000:13:29.790 luckily in this current administration 00:13:32.72000:13:32.730 the DEP is more helpful they are more 00:13:37.01900:13:37.029 helpful than they were in the past they 00:13:38.64000:13:38.650 are here to help you get this project 00:13:40.32000:13:40.330 going rather than you know throw up 00:13:42.42000:13:42.430 roadblocks and expect you to figure out 00:13:43.89000:13:43.900 how to to get over those hurdles water 00:13:48.24000:13:48.250 can be a huge issue these plants need 00:13:51.06000:13:51.070 water for cooling feed water for us we 00:13:56.13000:13:56.140 didn't think it was gonna be a big issue 00:13:57.54000:13:57.550 because we were supposedly on you know 00:13:59.73000:13:59.740 one of the the largest aquifers in the 00:14:01.65000:14:01.660 state of Maine that just happened to be 00:14:03.06000:14:03.070 dry so we ended up having to dig a large 00:14:06.78000:14:06.790 number of wells we're in close proximity 00:14:09.63000:14:09.640 to a protected River so that posed some 00:14:15.66000:14:15.670 issues to us we had to make sure that 00:14:16.98000:14:16.990 our wells weren't drawing from the river 00:14:18.51000:14:18.520 in fact they were coming from different 00:14:19.56000:14:19.570 water sources we had to prove that 00:14:20.94000:14:20.950 scientifically fuel obviously as well 00:14:25.35000:14:25.360 you know to heat the water up what about 00:14:28.29000:14:28.300 fuel contracts what are you gonna do 00:14:31.05000:14:31.060 long term we fortunate and unfortunate 00:14:34.25000:14:34.260 enough have enough capacity at the mill 00:14:36.90000:14:36.910 to supply about half our fuel going into 00:14:40.01900:14:40.029 to our new project so our current 00:14:43.69900:14:43.709 facilities aren't really enough to 00:14:45.57000:14:45.580 handle what we're producing for fuels so 00:14:47.69900:14:47.709 luckily with our new project we're gonna 00:14:50.22000:14:50.230 be producing about eight times as much 00:14:52.14000:14:52.150 steam as we were before so we're gonna 00:14:53.76000:14:53.770 be able to to buy in fuel and hopefully 00:14:56.85000:14:56.860 help out our local logging community and 00:14:59.44900:14:59.459 then waste you know you will have 00:15:02.49000:15:02.500 blowdown water you will have some 00:15:05.10000:15:05.110 wastewater to deal with and that'll get 00:15:07.11000:15:07.120 wrapped up in your permitting but but 00:15:08.73000:15:08.740 how are you gonna deal with that are you 00:15:09.87000:15:09.880 in a municipal supply for your water or 00:15:12.51000:15:12.520 you have to you know where is your waste 00:15:14.79000:15:14.800 where's your wastewater gonna go what 00:15:16.71000:15:16.720 are you gonna do with it there there are 00:15:18.06000:15:18.070 these are just a few of the issues that 00:15:19.65000:15:19.660 I could think of on the on the top of my 00:15:22.11000:15:22.120 head but the biggest thing is have a 00:15:23.49000:15:23.500 good team around you and then make that 00:15:26.34000:15:26.350 team better as you go along so we've met 00:15:29.07000:15:29.080 a lot of people and worked with a lot of 00:15:30.96000:15:30.970 people during this whole process 00:15:34.47000:15:34.480 and we were very fortunate to have some 00:15:36.63000:15:36.640 good help along the way thank you for 00:15:39.44900:15:39.459 hosting this meeting today my name is 00:15:41.88000:15:41.890 Robin Linkletter well all my brothers 00:15:43.68000:15:43.690 Richard and Bruce we are owners of 00:15:45.36000:15:45.370 Athens energy main would spell 00:15:46.94900:15:46.959 accompanying Linkletter and Sons and 00:15:48.56900:15:48.579 Linkletter Timberland my family's been 00:15:51.24000:15:51.250 working in the woods for 53 years mmm my 00:15:54.44900:15:54.459 company structure by design goes from 00:15:56.34000:15:56.350 stump to customer with a recent 00:15:58.94900:15:58.959 completion of Athens energy the puzzle 00:16:00.78000:16:00.790 is now complete 00:16:01.74000:16:01.750 I like to explain that we own 45,000 00:16:05.22000:16:05.230 acres of land and we have our own force 00:16:07.71000:16:07.720 crews and we have trucking and we saw it 00:16:11.13000:16:11.140 and high-grade the wood we use every bit 00:16:13.38000:16:13.390 of the wood the biomass goes to the 00:16:16.19900:16:16.209 biomass plant but before it can be put 00:16:18.15000:16:18.160 in the biomass plant it is screened and 00:16:20.73000:16:20.740 will screen out any good chips and make 00:16:22.86000:16:22.870 pellets out of them the poplar wood will 00:16:25.71000:16:25.720 go to the pellet plant and the the logs 00:16:29.25000:16:29.260 will go to the sawmills which we then in 00:16:31.31900:16:31.329 turn repurchased the sawdust and the 00:16:33.38900:16:33.399 chips from the psalmist to make either 00:16:34.71000:16:34.720 pellets or biomass we also repurchase 00:16:36.75000:16:36.760 Bach in the sawmill so we're pretty 00:16:38.91000:16:38.920 integrated with with most of the 00:16:41.34000:16:41.350 companies in the state of Maine 00:16:43.38000:16:43.390 there is no no way no waste and we're 00:16:46.38000:16:46.390 looking into something else to eliminate 00:16:48.78000:16:48.790 waste we kind of get the highest and 00:16:51.68900:16:51.699 best use of our ash we're currently 00:16:53.51900:16:53.529 getting rid of it all now on on either 00:16:55.92000:16:55.930 farmer's fields or other other 00:16:57.38900:16:57.399 situations but we're looking into some 00:17:00.09000:17:00.100 other things we can do with our 00:17:01.11000:17:01.120 byproducts like biochar or activated 00:17:03.24000:17:03.250 charcoal so there's all kinds of 00:17:05.49000:17:05.500 innovation trying to go on in the woods 00:17:08.05900:17:08.069 yeah the idea for Athens energy was 00:17:10.62000:17:10.630 conceived four years ago when we had 00:17:13.19900:17:13.209 very low temperatures and very high 00:17:15.44900:17:15.459 electrical costs Maine woods pellet 00:17:18.53900:17:18.549 could not sustain the cost of 00:17:19.98000:17:19.990 electricity that winter so hmm 00:17:24.09000:17:24.100 Athens energy was built on the site the 00:17:26.76000:17:26.770 development company has so we were able 00:17:28.83000:17:28.840 to utilize multiple multiple of 00:17:31.28000:17:31.290 multitude equipment between both 00:17:33.18000:17:33.190 companies 00:17:33.69000:17:33.700 I spent plenty of time traveling to 00:17:36.51000:17:36.520 Sweden British Columbia to observe 00:17:38.61000:17:38.620 operations of existing power plants made 00:17:41.66900:17:41.679 it up to either sawmills or pellet mills 00:17:44.21000:17:44.220 and and they're very impressive 00:17:47.88000:17:47.890 CHP CHP is prevalent in other countries 00:17:50.77000:17:50.780 where they have been utilizing biomass 00:17:52.75000:17:52.760 and electrical portfolio for many years 00:17:54.78900:17:54.799 we found each situation that we looked 00:17:57.07000:17:57.080 at to be different and built to the best 00:17:59.26000:17:59.270 serve their host and user companies some 00:18:02.59000:18:02.600 companies were making steam some paper 00:18:04.45000:18:04.460 companies Requin t the route that I did 00:18:07.00000:18:07.010 with organic rankine cycle and we're 00:18:09.52000:18:09.530 making hot air and we were drying that 00:18:11.28900:18:11.299 way when you run a pellet mill drying is 00:18:14.38000:18:14.390 one of the most expensive costs or is we 00:18:17.62000:18:17.630 have to reduce we takes two tons of wood 00:18:19.87000:18:19.880 to make one ton of pellets 50% of all of 00:18:22.99000:18:23.000 your wood goes up the stack as moisture 00:18:24.88000:18:24.890 we evaporate a 55-gallon barrel of water 00:18:28.06000:18:28.070 every minute Athens Energy is an eight 00:18:32.44000:18:32.450 and a half megawatt CHP that delivers 00:18:34.65900:18:34.669 not only power a nine million BTUs of 00:18:37.36000:18:37.370 hot water and 36 million BTUs of hot air 00:18:40.06000:18:40.070 to Maine woods pellet which is used in 00:18:42.52000:18:42.530 drying of the pellet stock its pre 00:18:44.20000:18:44.210 drying this time the new CHP piece 00:18:47.26000:18:47.270 provided stability for the pellet 00:18:49.06000:18:49.070 company by mitigating the cost of drying 00:18:51.25000:18:51.260 frozen wood in the winter months and 00:18:52.99000:18:53.000 allow us to run at full speed during 00:18:55.06000:18:55.070 months when pellets are in most demand 00:18:56.76000:18:56.770 it also allows us to expand production 00:18:59.68000:18:59.690 in the future which we hope will 00:19:01.12000:19:01.130 increase jobs Athens Energy is an 00:19:04.41900:19:04.429 organic rankine cycle which is different 00:19:06.34000:19:06.350 than most CHP the o RC boiler and the 00:19:08.68000:19:08.690 turbine medium is not water it is oil 00:19:11.58000:19:11.590 the oil is completely circulated and 00:19:14.32000:19:14.330 filtered and reused over and over again 00:19:17.02000:19:17.030 and we get out once a year and we may 00:19:19.51000:19:19.520 add to it we'll check to the stability 00:19:21.31000:19:21.320 of the oil the only thing we have to 00:19:23.26000:19:23.270 watch out is that we don't burn the oil 00:19:24.73000:19:24.740 then then it'll be ruined it has to be 00:19:26.98000:19:26.990 replaced but the computer takes care of 00:19:29.32000:19:29.330 that for us since operations began about 00:19:33.10000:19:33.110 a year ago we've seen boiler 00:19:34.36000:19:34.370 efficiencies by itself in the 30% and 00:19:37.12000:19:37.130 when we calculate the use of the waste 00:19:38.79900:19:38.809 heat that we are able to get out of the 00:19:40.60000:19:40.610 world with 62% efficient which is pretty 00:19:43.99000:19:44.000 amazing for CHP Athens Energy has been a 00:19:48.70000:19:48.710 real boost for the loggers truckers 00:19:50.38000:19:50.390 landowners pot suppliers and many other 00:19:52.48000:19:52.490 local businesses within 100 00:19:54.20000:19:54.210 of Athens currently Athens energy 00:19:58.19000:19:58.200 purchase waste bike and chips from about 00:20:00.23000:20:00.240 21 sawmills 00:20:01.61000:20:01.620 the CHP model if spread across Maine 00:20:04.16000:20:04.170 could truly be in the shot in the arm 00:20:05.63000:20:05.640 for the economic growth and stability of 00:20:07.82000:20:07.830 Maine's forest industry also if situated 00:20:10.88000:20:10.890 correctly around Maine could truly 00:20:12.95000:20:12.960 benefit rural Maine and could help boost 00:20:15.47000:20:15.480 and stabilize the grid we have a great 00:20:19.37000:20:19.380 resource in Maine I would it is 00:20:21.44000:20:21.450 imperative to utilize every bit of it we 00:20:23.84000:20:23.850 must have a market for the biomass 00:20:25.46000:20:25.470 generated from the log in operation this 00:20:27.59000:20:27.600 keeps the wood floor cleaner not only 00:20:29.96000:20:29.970 for faster regeneration but also reduce 00:20:32.06000:20:32.070 fire hazard the idea of CHP is based on 00:20:35.09000:20:35.100 a stable long-term power purchase 00:20:36.77000:20:36.780 agreement with utilities this along with 00:20:39.11000:20:39.120 stable recs from States recognizing the 00:20:41.24000:20:41.250 value of base loaded renewable power is 00:20:43.37000:20:43.380 crucial the two programs we were able to 00:20:45.86000:20:45.870 take advantage of in building Athens 00:20:47.69000:20:47.700 energy with the new market tax credits 00:20:49.97000:20:49.980 and investment tax credits these 00:20:52.04000:20:52.050 programs were essential to get the power 00:20:53.87000:20:53.880 plant built during this huge undertaking 00:20:57.56000:20:57.570 we were bound to encounter some common 00:20:59.33000:20:59.340 pitfalls from the Power Purchase 00:21:01.67000:21:01.680 Agreement to the interconnection 00:21:03.26000:21:03.270 agreement the electrical connection to 00:21:04.88000:21:04.890 the first power to the grid the learning 00:21:07.04000:21:07.050 curve 00:21:07.40000:21:07.410 the learning curve was daunting from the 00:21:09.92000:21:09.930 financing the transportation and 00:21:11.66000:21:11.670 construction during the winter months in 00:21:13.25000:21:13.260 rural Athens at times these these steps 00:21:15.62000:21:15.630 seem never-ending with the prize in 00:21:18.23000:21:18.240 sight though at the end we have 00:21:20.54000:21:20.550 persevered so a CHP is an efficient 00:21:23.66000:21:23.670 approach to reduce the energy cost I 00:21:25.46000:21:25.470 believe that they not only reduce energy 00:21:27.47000:21:27.480 costs but they could also stabilize 00:21:29.36000:21:29.370 those costs for year to come it is to 00:21:31.16000:21:31.170 come additionally they will promote many 00:21:33.53000:21:33.540 internal efficiencies between the host 00:21:35.33000:21:35.340 and user companies they also promote 00:21:37.94000:21:37.950 efficiencies in companies such as 00:21:39.29000:21:39.300 sawmill so don't have to landfill their 00:21:41.24000:21:41.250 waste byproducts but we need to care on 00:21:44.42000:21:44.430 a stick to get people to invest millions 00:21:46.19000:21:46.200 of dollars on CHP is and now show some 00:21:49.52000:21:49.530 savings to both host and user companies 00:21:51.53000:21:51.540 we need a thermal rec class federal or 00:21:54.74000:21:54.750 regional that rewards the base loaded 00:21:57.14000:21:57.150 biomass plants that is either a 00:21:58.79000:21:58.800 standalone federal or carved out of 00:22:01.10000:22:01.110 existing regional recs that are now 00:22:02.78000:22:02.790 available both New Hampshire and 00:22:05.24000:22:05.250 Massachusetts have adopted thermal rec 00:22:07.33000:22:07.340 and I believe that Maine and the federal 00:22:09.16000:22:09.170 government should take a look at these 00:22:10.42000:22:10.430 positive aspects that are happening in 00:22:12.43000:22:12.440 these two states 00:22:14.28000:22:14.290 another thing has happened is that the 00:22:16.60000:22:16.610 state of Vermont has mandated that by 00:22:18.64000:22:18.650 2030 sixty percent of all public and 00:22:21.97000:22:21.980 school buildings shall be heated by 00:22:24.31000:22:24.320 biomass either pellet or chip form just 00:22:27.91000:22:27.920 look at the positives Maine has the 00:22:30.10000:22:30.110 highest biomass boiler conversion 00:22:32.02000:22:32.030 potential in the eastern US we have 00:22:34.18000:22:34.190 millions of acres of renewable for us 00:22:36.19000:22:36.200 and Maine has the most capable logging 00:22:38.68000:22:38.690 industry available the SI power costs 00:22:41.23000:22:41.240 are high but most of our power costs are 00:22:43.21000:22:43.220 transportation and distribution charged 00:22:45.52000:22:45.530 by our utilities I have found that these 00:22:47.68000:22:47.690 costs are historically higher than the 00:22:49.54000:22:49.550 cost of the power itself it is possible 00:22:52.66000:22:52.670 to eliminate the T and D by locating 00:22:54.58000:22:54.590 installations such as robbins lumber 00:22:56.47000:22:56.480 near an existing facility while possibly 00:22:59.50000:22:59.510 enticing new businesses with thermal 00:23:01.75000:23:01.760 racks getting them to reach relocate and 00:23:03.82000:23:03.830 have a symbiotic relationship 00:23:06.36000:23:06.370 additionally the advantages to the 00:23:08.38000:23:08.390 environment of many the carbon 00:23:10.36000:23:10.370 neutrality the reduction of co2 and the 00:23:12.58000:23:12.590 decreasing dependency on foreign oil 00:23:14.20000:23:14.210 topped the list 00:23:15.69000:23:15.700 imagine the emission savings when you 00:23:17.77000:23:17.780 compare the transportation of biomass 00:23:19.60000:23:19.610 from a 50 mile radius of a facility to 00:23:22.60000:23:22.610 the transportation of oil from the 00:23:24.52000:23:24.530 southern part of the United States or 00:23:25.93000:23:25.940 worse yes or worse yet Saudi Arabia even 00:23:29.74000:23:29.750 at the current rates biomass and pellets 00:23:31.99000:23:32.000 are cheaper and cleaner heat source than 00:23:34.57000:23:34.580 oil and propane in closing I believe my 00:23:37.84000:23:37.850 experience with CHP has been positive 00:23:39.84000:23:39.850 the marriage with other businesses will 00:23:42.40000:23:42.410 help control energy cost the disposal of 00:23:44.80000:23:44.810 waste byproducts job creation energy 00:23:47.71000:23:47.720 efficiency and is a win-win for the 00:23:49.45000:23:49.460 state of Maine Maine businesses today 00:23:51.52000:23:51.530 both existing and in the future thank 00:23:54.37000:23:54.380 you for allowing me to share my thoughts 00:23:55.59000:23:55.600 our next speaker is Chuck Kweli he's a 00:23:58.90000:23:58.910 senior engineer at sapis Skowhegan mill 00:24:01.75000:24:01.760 and obviously paper mills pulp and paper 00:24:06.70000:24:06.710 mills are huge energy users 24/7 they 00:24:10.57000:24:10.580 all have their own power island so a 00:24:14.08000:24:14.090 long history of a generation combined 00:24:18.25000:24:18.260 heat and power at a different scale but 00:24:20.74000:24:20.750 critical to the forest products industry 00:24:22.18000:24:22.190 and really critical to the you know the 00:24:25.15000:24:25.160 the success of the mill which is so 00:24:27.34000:24:27.350 important to all of us so with that 00:24:28.69000:24:28.700 please welcome Chuck my my talks a 00:24:32.08000:24:32.090 little bit different than the first two 00:24:33.63000:24:33.640 we've had a combined heating power cycle 00:24:36.64000:24:36.650 since 1976 when the mill was first 00:24:39.04000:24:39.050 installed I work at the Somerset mill 00:24:46.41000:24:46.420 central Maine Skowhegan Maine mill was 00:24:50.56000:24:50.570 put in as a pulp mill in 1976 in the 00:24:53.92000:24:53.930 early 80s we added the first bait 00:24:55.69000:24:55.700 machine mid-80s a second one in around 00:24:58.86000:24:58.870 1990 89 added the third paper machine so 00:25:03.34000:25:03.350 as I said it was started and installed 00:25:06.52000:25:06.530 as a CHP right from the start really 00:25:09.10000:25:09.110 it's kind of a combination of a CHP and 00:25:13.09000:25:13.100 a conventional biomass power plant so we 00:25:16.03000:25:16.040 have the ability to run like a 00:25:18.01000:25:18.020 conventional plant where you have just a 00:25:20.41000:25:20.420 power boiler turbine and a condenser and 00:25:23.65000:25:23.660 you make power just like a standalone 00:25:25.75000:25:25.760 plant to do it on top of extraction from 00:25:30.76000:25:30.770 those turbines at a higher pressure 00:25:33.49000:25:33.500 steam to run the pulp and paper making 00:25:36.64000:25:36.650 equipment so a little bit about the 00:25:40.15000:25:40.160 specifics of Somerset we make on average 00:25:44.20000:25:44.210 about a million 250,000 pounds an hour 00:25:46.48000:25:46.490 of steam 850 pounds pressure 850 degrees 00:25:50.32000:25:50.330 Fahrenheit very complicated to run you 00:25:53.50000:25:53.510 need you need the licensed engineers you 00:25:56.08000:25:56.090 need water treatment personnel you need 00:26:00.07000:26:00.080 you have all the turbine rebuilds all 00:26:01.93000:26:01.940 the things that were talked about 00:26:03.01000:26:03.020 earlier you know that's kind of our 00:26:04.75000:26:04.760 daily life the thing about Somerset is 00:26:07.96000:26:07.970 that we were they decided to go big so 00:26:12.31000:26:12.320 not only do we have a black liquor 00:26:14.23000:26:14.240 boiler we have two very large hog fuel 00:26:18.13000:26:18.140 boilers multi-fuel boilers the recovery 00:26:22.45000:26:22.460 boiler that's makes up about half of our 00:26:26.59000:26:26.600 steam production so we get in something 00:26:30.91000:26:30.920 like Ryan can correct me two million 00:26:33.46000:26:33.470 tons of 00:26:34.51000:26:34.520 logs and chips in which we make paper 00:26:38.98000:26:38.990 pulp from about half of that mass of 00:26:44.41000:26:44.420 that material ends up in the recovery 00:26:46.63000:26:46.640 boiler so we burned that half of that 00:26:49.57000:26:49.580 two million tonnes as black liquor in 00:26:52.18000:26:52.190 the recovery boiler we have to hog fuel 00:26:56.95000:26:56.960 boilers that have the ability to make 00:26:59.02000:26:59.030 large amounts of steam we can burn about 00:27:02.44000:27:02.450 80 tons 83 tons an hour and one boiler 00:27:05.59000:27:05.600 wet tons and about 63 tons and the other 00:27:08.53000:27:08.540 boiler and we have two steam turbines 00:27:11.73000:27:11.740 one's a sixty megawatt double extraction 00:27:16.04900:27:16.059 condensing leg the other is a 00:27:18.43000:27:18.440 forty-eight megawatt so we make five 00:27:22.39000:27:22.400 hundred seventy five thousand tons in a 00:27:24.01000:27:24.020 year of Pulp 850 thousand tons a year of 00:27:27.34000:27:27.350 coated paper in terms of our energy 00:27:33.46000:27:33.470 eighty one percent of our fuel comes 00:27:36.22000:27:36.230 from biofuels into the plant the 00:27:40.54000:27:40.550 advantage of the multi fuel boiler for 00:27:42.79000:27:42.800 us that is we burn our pulp mill sludges 00:27:46.06000:27:46.070 in that boiler we incinerate our high 00:27:49.36000:27:49.370 volume gases so the mill is nearly odor 00:27:52.57000:27:52.580 free to the outside world and we can 00:27:58.45000:27:58.460 bring in different types of fuel for 00:28:01.57000:28:01.580 example we burn tire derived fuel TDF 00:28:04.71000:28:04.720 which helps lower our cost of energy 00:28:07.41900:28:07.429 generation obviously 81 percent of fuel 00:28:13.54000:28:13.550 forest products are extremely extremely 00:28:16.12000:28:16.130 important to us terms of the thermal 00:28:20.02000:28:20.030 piece there's something like nine 00:28:22.36000:28:22.370 trillion BTUs a year that go into making 00:28:27.04000:28:27.050 pulp and paper and that thermal piece 00:28:30.97000:28:30.980 from the CHP and all that's coming from 00:28:33.01000:28:33.020 our CHP part of our plant is extremely 00:28:35.74000:28:35.750 important to us and we put up lots of 00:28:40.24000:28:40.250 money into heat exchangers preheating 00:28:44.53000:28:44.540 that feed water bringing that up to 00:28:46.54000:28:46.550 temperature 00:28:50.37000:28:50.380 the question one of the questions is you 00:28:52.56000:28:52.570 know what programs did we take advantage 00:28:54.18000:28:54.190 of one of them is efficiency main we've 00:28:58.02000:28:58.030 done a lot of projects with efficiency 00:28:59.66900:28:59.679 main in general what they did was would 00:29:03.36000:29:03.370 they would buy down the payback 00:29:05.19000:29:05.200 so that would a project that the mill 00:29:07.20000:29:07.210 probably wouldn't have done became 00:29:10.28000:29:10.290 viable met our hurdle for green for 00:29:15.15000:29:15.160 return on investment here's a couple 00:29:17.54900:29:17.559 pictures of projects that have been done 00:29:19.29000:29:19.300 heat recovery projects off hoods in the 00:29:22.11000:29:22.120 paper mill and basically without the 00:29:25.98000:29:25.990 efficiency main these projects probably 00:29:27.60000:29:27.610 wouldn't happen in the timeframe that 00:29:28.83000:29:28.840 they did there's three recent projects 00:29:36.14000:29:36.150 hood recovery 11 million BTUs per hour 00:29:40.08000:29:40.090 19 million BTUs per hour 9 million BTUs 00:29:43.38000:29:43.390 per hour 00:29:44.01000:29:44.020 again that thermal part of that CHP is 00:29:47.22000:29:47.230 extremely important to us and we spend a 00:29:49.47000:29:49.480 lot of time making sure that we're using 00:29:50.82000:29:50.830 that wisely so a couple of the issues we 00:29:55.20000:29:55.210 deal with is when you burn that much 00:29:57.90000:29:57.910 solid fuel you've got ash that you have 00:30:00.09000:30:00.100 to dispose of and we've made the choice 00:30:02.88000:30:02.890 to burn entire Drive fuel with that with 00:30:05.76000:30:05.770 that fuel so there's wire in the ash and 00:30:09.27000:30:09.280 soul and spreading for us it hasn't been 00:30:11.40000:30:11.410 an option so we're in the landfill 00:30:13.74000:30:13.750 business which again is costly and not 00:30:19.71000:30:19.720 the best place to be but for us 00:30:21.27000:30:21.280 financially that's where it ends we end 00:30:23.25000:30:23.260 up the other issue we have is we've 00:30:26.16000:30:26.170 recently added natural gas to these 00:30:28.11000:30:28.120 multi fuel boilers or the larger multi 00:30:30.51000:30:30.520 fuel boiler and so our usage of biomass 00:30:35.40000:30:35.410 can swing tremendously makes it very 00:30:37.71000:30:37.720 hard for Ryan and his group to supply 00:30:40.53000:30:40.540 the mill some years we can be four 00:30:44.10000:30:44.110 hundred thousand tons wet tons other 00:30:46.08000:30:46.090 years we can be nine hundred thousand 00:30:47.49000:30:47.500 wet tons so that creates other 00:30:50.73000:30:50.740 downstream problems in terms of storage 00:30:52.71000:30:52.720 and the years that you have the huge 00:30:54.93000:30:54.940 usage how do you store that material 00:31:00.59900:31:00.609 talked a little bit about our thermal 00:31:03.48900:31:03.499 usage we also have a lot of drive 00:31:06.33900:31:06.349 turbines a lot of the turbines aren't 00:31:08.73900:31:08.749 just producing electricity they're also 00:31:11.37900:31:11.389 running mechanical equipment the line 00:31:13.38900:31:13.399 shafts on the paper mill two of them are 00:31:15.21900:31:15.229 completely done but with drive turbines 00:31:18.11900:31:18.129 there there are vacuum turbines there 00:31:22.18000:31:22.190 are fans on the boilers large fans ID 00:31:25.45000:31:25.460 fans they call them those are powered by 00:31:27.66900:31:27.679 steam so between the electric the 00:31:35.78900:31:35.799 thermal and the mechanical you're 00:31:40.06000:31:40.070 talking thirteen trillion million 00:31:42.70000:31:42.710 thirteen trillion BTUs a year to run 00:31:45.24900:31:45.259 that plant so our our CHP project I said 00:31:50.97900:31:50.989 is you know they wanted a little bit 00:31:52.23900:31:52.249 about our experience with the project 00:31:53.52900:31:53.539 our projects been in place since 1976 00:31:55.86900:31:55.879 with an addition in 1990 one thing I 00:32:00.66900:32:00.679 will tell you I see a lot of the other 00:32:02.01900:32:02.029 mills we have a mill in Westbrook which 00:32:04.61900:32:04.629 many remote must probably know is that 00:32:07.86900:32:07.879 had a pulp mill back in the up until the 00:32:10.57000:32:10.580 late 90s that pulp mill was shut down 00:32:15.59900:32:15.609 but the mill still makes a very viable 00:32:18.07000:32:18.080 product but it just has a much smaller 00:32:20.34900:32:20.359 thermal usage and one of the things 00:32:24.00900:32:24.019 they're doing with their low pressure 00:32:26.46900:32:26.479 steam is they actually give it away to a 00:32:28.47900:32:28.489 local hospital so that's you know they 00:32:31.08900:32:31.099 can generate the power off it and the 00:32:32.56000:32:32.570 hospital gets the benefit of the free 00:32:34.02900:32:34.039 energy we have a mill in grat corn 00:32:37.71900:32:37.729 Austria which is you know the Europeans 00:32:42.57900:32:42.589 do things so well their local community 00:32:47.25900:32:47.269 was all on a hot water system for 00:32:50.44000:32:50.450 heating and the grat corn mill basically 00:32:54.09900:32:54.109 has taken some of their low pressure 00:32:55.50900:32:55.519 energy and they ran nine or ten million 00:32:59.64900:32:59.659 nine or ten kilometres miles of piping 00:33:05.04900:33:05.059 to basically feed the local community 00:33:07.29900:33:07.309 and doing what they call district 00:33:08.49900:33:08.509 heating so they found a thermal load 00:33:12.07000:33:12.080 some of this kind of lower grade heat it 00:33:13.89900:33:13.909 allows them to generate more power so 00:33:16.72000:33:16.730 that was a really kind of a neat project 00:33:19.21000:33:19.220 it was just done the last couple of 00:33:20.38000:33:20.390 years so in terms of programs I talked a 00:33:26.38000:33:26.390 little bit about efficiency main the 00:33:28.86000:33:28.870 other program we take advantage of our 00:33:31.81000:33:31.820 renewable energy certificates sure most 00:33:35.86000:33:35.870 of you are familiar with that product 00:33:37.33000:33:37.340 but basically utilities have a mandate 00:33:41.97000:33:41.980 portfolio that says they have to have a 00:33:43.96000:33:43.970 certain amount of power from renewable 00:33:47.32000:33:47.330 sources and we can sell the the fact 00:33:50.28900:33:50.299 that we made the power on-site not the 00:33:53.11000:33:53.120 actual megawatts but just the fact that 00:33:54.82000:33:54.830 we made the power on-site from a 00:33:56.68000:33:56.690 renewable and a renewable process that 00:33:59.44000:33:59.450 meets their requirements we can sell 00:34:02.01900:34:02.029 those certificates so that's that's been 00:34:04.65900:34:04.669 a beneficial program for us is there 00:34:09.39900:34:09.409 talked about room to expand I was one of 00:34:13.38900:34:13.399 the questions we were asked we're 00:34:15.66900:34:15.679 currently in the process of expanding 00:34:19.06000:34:19.070 our production the number one paper 00:34:21.19000:34:21.200 machine is being rebuilt that's a 00:34:22.75000:34:22.760 hundred and sixty five million dollar 00:34:24.43000:34:24.440 rebuild it's occurring right now 00:34:27.03000:34:27.040 and that's going to get us into slightly 00:34:29.82900:34:29.839 different products we'll be able to 00:34:31.27000:34:31.280 swing back and forth but you know we're 00:34:33.70000:34:33.710 really trying to make things that people 00:34:34.83900:34:34.849 want to buy so we're also expanding our 00:34:39.04000:34:39.050 wood room right now and rebuilding that 00:34:40.96000:34:40.970 wood room there was like a thirty 00:34:42.84900:34:42.859 million dollar project some of the 00:34:48.12900:34:48.139 things what have I learned 00:34:50.32000:34:50.330 was one of the questions I we were asked 00:34:52.24000:34:52.250 and one of the things it's always 00:34:55.78000:34:55.790 amazing to me is the fact that a 00:34:59.32000:34:59.330 conventional biomass plant 75% of that 00:35:03.76000:35:03.770 energy goes to the atmosphere you know 00:35:07.06000:35:07.070 part of it through the stack and part of 00:35:09.16000:35:09.170 it through what the cooling tower 00:35:10.45000:35:10.460 rejects to the to the atmosphere and a 00:35:13.54000:35:13.550 CHP plant you know what when we run as a 00:35:16.83900:35:16.849 CHP we're over sixty percent efficient 00:35:19.21000:35:19.220 so there's this huge swing and whether 00:35:21.43000:35:21.440 that energy gets used efficiently or not 00:35:23.65000:35:23.660 most most of the utility plants you see 00:35:27.37000:35:27.380 out there rejecting huge huge amounts of 00:35:29.53000:35:29.540 energy to the atmosphere that you know 00:35:32.56000:35:32.570 the Europeans have found some ways to 00:35:33.91000:35:33.920 use and CHP is definitely a way to take 00:35:36.58000:35:36.590 advantage of that advice for companies 00:35:41.68000:35:41.690 considering CHP well if you don't have a 00:35:45.10000:35:45.110 process like a pellet mill then you need 00:35:47.62000:35:47.630 to find a partner that you can that's 00:35:50.20000:35:50.210 willing to take your energy so it's 00:35:55.15000:35:55.160 about shopping around for the right 00:35:56.62000:35:56.630 partner for that thermal load we've 00:35:59.59000:35:59.600 looked at some of those loads for the 00:36:01.36000:36:01.370 West Brook mill certainly the folks at 00:36:06.55000:36:06.560 Grant corn in Austria found their load 00:36:08.83000:36:08.840 as being the district heating heating up 00:36:11.29000:36:11.300 the community so with that I'm all set 00:36:17.41000:36:17.420 thank you very much 00:36:19.57000:36:19.580 and now our final speaker doesn't have a 00:36:22.87000:36:22.880 project but he works on dozens if not 00:36:25.87000:36:25.880 more scores and scores of projects Ben 00:36:29.56000:36:29.570 McDaniel comes to us with US Department 00:36:32.44000:36:32.450 of Energy's combined heat and power 00:36:35.23000:36:35.240 technical assistance program being from 00:36:38.26000:36:38.270 the feds he just handed me something 00:36:39.76000:36:39.770 that said as he's with do a CHP ta P 00:36:43.44000:36:43.450 yeah so so Ben's here to talk about some 00:36:48.94000:36:48.950 of their no-cost services and how they 00:36:51.43000:36:51.440 can help bring best practices and 00:36:54.97000:36:54.980 learnings from not only this region in 00:36:57.46000:36:57.470 this industry but CHP projects 00:36:59.77000:36:59.780 nationally and internationally to your 00:37:01.54000:37:01.550 project well thanks for having me out 00:37:06.43000:37:06.440 and for the invites I think because we 00:37:10.15000:37:10.160 work on probably about 100 projects a 00:37:12.58000:37:12.590 year probably good to talk about yeah 00:37:15.76000:37:15.770 sorry some of the lessons learned some 00:37:17.47000:37:17.480 successful projects and then more just 00:37:19.96000:37:19.970 focused on on our services we are we are 00:37:22.66000:37:22.670 here we're a program we're one of seven 00:37:24.55000:37:24.560 centers around the country to provide 00:37:26.98000:37:26.990 combined heat and power services at no 00:37:29.02000:37:29.030 cost so got a list of questions so start 00:37:33.07000:37:33.080 I guess by answering those and then I'd 00:37:35.20000:37:35.210 love to take some questions if you guys 00:37:36.55000:37:36.560 have projects would love to talk to you 00:37:38.08000:37:38.090 about that so we had what makes a 00:37:41.17000:37:41.180 successful system so combined heat and 00:37:43.63000:37:43.640 power I think it really depends largely 00:37:47.05000:37:47.060 on the end user and their goals often I 00:37:50.20000:37:50.210 mean most people want cost reductions 00:37:52.23000:37:52.240 sometimes its emission reductions 00:37:54.25000:37:54.260 sometimes it's resiliency so resilient 00:37:56.71000:37:56.720 power for some people are it's very 00:37:58.48000:37:58.490 important and they can take a long 00:38:00.46000:38:00.470 payback if they have that very resilient 00:38:02.23000:38:02.240 power so to have any of these goals it's 00:38:06.46000:38:06.470 what we see is it starts with really 00:38:08.74000:38:08.750 good design and proper sizing and to 00:38:11.32000:38:11.330 that proper sizing and good design you 00:38:12.85000:38:12.860 need to know it was great you were 00:38:15.16000:38:15.170 talking a lot about the thermal load 00:38:16.42000:38:16.430 Chuck is you really need to know what 00:38:19.42000:38:19.430 your thermal requirements are and and 00:38:21.52000:38:21.530 your electric demand but really or your 00:38:23.32000:38:23.330 thermal requirements that's that's 00:38:26.68000:38:26.690 really important because if you don't 00:38:27.67000:38:27.680 utilize that that adversely affects your 00:38:29.53000:38:29.540 system efficiency and and could make it 00:38:31.96000:38:31.970 tough to get 00:38:33.29000:38:33.300 state rebates or even the ITC or PTC 00:38:35.96000:38:35.970 which they've got some tax credits that 00:38:37.37000:38:37.380 usually want you to be above 60% so if 00:38:40.67000:38:40.680 you're not doing that you're kind of a 00:38:41.81000:38:41.820 standalone power generator and you won't 00:38:43.49000:38:43.500 be getting these credits so it's really 00:38:45.38000:38:45.390 important so as far as lessons learned 00:38:49.48000:38:49.490 and knowing your thermal load is is 00:38:53.45000:38:53.460 really really important and proper 00:38:55.94000:38:55.950 sizing is key so we've seen systems 00:39:00.38000:39:00.390 unfortunately again we go screen systems 00:39:03.71000:39:03.720 about a hundred a year and then we 00:39:04.73000:39:04.740 troubleshoot some we saw one last year 00:39:07.88000:39:07.890 that was way over sized and as a result 00:39:10.07000:39:10.080 was only able to operate a couple 00:39:12.14000:39:12.150 hundred hours a year this is a 00:39:13.19000:39:13.200 multi-million dollar investment just 00:39:15.32000:39:15.330 sitting because the thermal load was too 00:39:16.60900:39:16.619 long was too low and it couldn't operate 00:39:18.59000:39:18.600 at low fire it's a reciprocating systems 00:39:20.90000:39:20.910 a little different than what we're 00:39:21.80000:39:21.810 talking about but you don't want that so 00:39:24.44000:39:24.450 you really want to know what your 00:39:26.48000:39:26.490 thermal load is I think a lot of people 00:39:28.07000:39:28.080 are very concerned about how much 00:39:30.23000:39:30.240 electricity can be produced and kind of 00:39:32.87000:39:32.880 the thermal loads an afterthought and 00:39:34.82000:39:34.830 it's really good for that to be kind of 00:39:37.46000:39:37.470 an initial stage is how much thermal 00:39:38.93000:39:38.940 energy can I use on-site at what grade 00:39:41.54000:39:41.550 what do I need so that's it's really 00:39:44.99000:39:45.000 important and and we are held here to 00:39:47.27000:39:47.280 really help with that so again we're the 00:39:49.70000:39:49.710 u.s. do E's CHP taps which is the 00:39:52.76000:39:52.770 technical assistance partnership one of 00:39:55.25000:39:55.260 seven centers and we offer three key 00:39:58.07000:39:58.080 technical services the first being 00:39:59.96000:39:59.970 qualification screening these are all 00:40:02.45000:40:02.460 no-cost so qualification screening is 00:40:05.48000:40:05.490 you have a couple years of bills or a 00:40:07.28000:40:07.290 year of bills we can at a very high 00:40:09.29000:40:09.300 level tell you if CHP is it could fit 00:40:11.66000:40:11.670 for your facility and the next one is a 00:40:14.72000:40:14.730 feasibility assessment so on a 00:40:16.49000:40:16.500 case-by-case basis we approve very 00:40:18.23000:40:18.240 detailed hourly we'll look at our really 00:40:20.87000:40:20.880 thermal and electric load data and and 00:40:23.95000:40:23.960 you can talk to your utility and look 00:40:26.18000:40:26.190 for incentives and into a very detailed 00:40:28.25000:40:28.260 feasibility assessment and the last is 00:40:31.55000:40:31.560 third-party reviews so if you have a 00:40:33.23000:40:33.240 system that's being built or when you're 00:40:35.15000:40:35.160 considering or one way we're happy to to 00:40:39.02000:40:39.030 give you kind of a second set of eyes 00:40:40.25000:40:40.260 give you our advice as far as from what 00:40:43.16000:40:43.170 we've seen and help out so 00:40:45.75000:40:45.760 we highly encourage you if you're at all 00:40:48.90000:40:48.910 interested in CHP whether it be you know 00:40:52.71000:40:52.720 just just curious if it makes sense for 00:40:54.39000:40:54.400 your sylheti you want to learn a little 00:40:55.47000:40:55.480 more about it or if you're really 00:40:56.94000:40:56.950 serious about a project feel free to 00:40:59.49000:40:59.500 call us email us to talk to me after 00:41:01.74000:41:01.750 this this is why we are here so utilize 00:41:06.18000:41:06.190 our services and ask questions again 00:41:08.76000:41:08.770 we're we're here we're based out of 00:41:10.83000:41:10.840 Western Mass and that's the technical 00:41:13.05000:41:13.060 arm at UMass Amherst and we have our 00:41:15.87000:41:15.880 kind of legal arm if you need help in 00:41:18.30000:41:18.310 that space down at Pace University in 00:41:19.98000:41:19.990 New York and our territories again from 00:41:22.80000:41:22.810 New York to Maine so it doesn't have to 00:41:24.51000:41:24.520 be just projects in Maine could be all 00:41:26.01000:41:26.020 over New England okay and then I guess 00:41:30.39000:41:30.400 one question was what funding is there 00:41:31.89000:41:31.900 available seems like a lot of you guys 00:41:34.23000:41:34.240 know about the ITC and the PTC and then 00:41:37.41000:41:37.420 efficiency Maine I know has some rebates 00:41:39.59900:41:39.609 and that would be something to look into 00:41:41.27000:41:41.280 and then I guess there is our technical 00:41:43.85900:41:43.869 services again there no costs utilize 00:41:45.84000:41:45.850 this we are here for that and then I 00:41:50.25000:41:50.260 think that's it for Maine I know other 00:41:52.56000:41:52.570 states mass in New York of kind of the 00:41:54.30000:41:54.310 leaders they have really really great 00:41:56.19000:41:56.200 incentives for CHP mass has I mean 00:41:59.64000:41:59.650 basically it has a capital incentive 00:42:01.29000:42:01.300 which is based on the performance a 00:42:02.67000:42:02.680 nameplate production and then an 00:42:05.88000:42:05.890 operating center you get basically two 00:42:07.47000:42:07.480 cents back for every megawatt hour 00:42:08.94000:42:08.950 generate or kilowatt hours north so it's 00:42:12.38000:42:12.390 it's really great so if you look in 00:42:14.31000:42:14.320 other states those exist too and New 00:42:16.83000:42:16.840 York also has kind of an accelerator 00:42:18.69000:42:18.700 program which we've seen some systems 00:42:22.41000:42:22.420 like fully funded half by the state half 00:42:24.69000:42:24.700 by the utilities well for me and I would 00:42:28.02000:42:28.030 talk to us talk to efficiency Maine talk 00:42:31.23000:42:31.240 to utility and those are the incentives 00:42:33.57000:42:33.580 but really we're happy to come out and 00:42:36.81000:42:36.820 just I guess make you aware that we 00:42:39.12000:42:39.130 existed I'm not sure if anyone knew the 00:42:41.34000:42:41.350 service existed if we show hands did 00:42:44.28000:42:44.290 anyone know that there was a CHP program 00:42:46.71000:42:46.720 around okay we have a couple and you 00:42:49.02000:42:49.030 probably know the Northwest taps right 00:42:50.67000:42:50.680 with Dave 00:42:51.75000:42:51.760 yeah great guy well again we're here so 00:42:55.64000:42:55.650 utilize our services I'd be happy to 00:42:58.02000:42:58.030 take any questions 00:42:59.16000:42:59.170 so I heard Chuck speak about the ash 00:43:04.17000:43:04.180 that comes out of the boiler you have to 00:43:06.66000:43:06.670 put it in the landfill because it's got 00:43:07.98000:43:07.990 T tired to ride fuel in it but I didn't 00:43:12.69000:43:12.700 hear all Derner Bob speak to what you 00:43:14.52000:43:14.530 did with the ash and I assume it's 00:43:16.55900:43:16.569 probably not going in a landfill nope 00:43:18.53900:43:18.549 none of it goes in landfill currently 00:43:20.13000:43:20.140 all of it goes on farmer's fields is 00:43:22.20000:43:22.210 wood in wood out no additives so it's uh 00:43:25.34900:43:25.359 it's a great potash you know all the 00:43:30.18000:43:30.190 same thing yeah so currently we're not 00:43:33.87000:43:33.880 having any ash come out of a new system 00:43:35.43000:43:35.440 yet because we just poured some concrete 00:43:37.95000:43:37.960 last week 00:43:38.78900:43:38.799 so we're we've got a time before our ash 00:43:42.15000:43:42.160 starts getting produced but you you know 00:43:43.41000:43:43.420 you're gonna be producing typically 00:43:45.35900:43:45.369 depending on your system we have a step 00:43:46.74000:43:46.750 great combustor very similar to what Bob 00:43:48.45000:43:48.460 is is is employing so you're gonna have 00:43:51.56900:43:51.579 bottom ash and fly ash and so there's 00:43:54.48000:43:54.490 there's two different components some of 00:43:57.48000:43:57.490 them are easier to get rid of than 00:43:59.30900:43:59.319 others luckily these new systems with 00:44:01.85900:44:01.869 the traveling grates are much more 00:44:03.24000:44:03.250 efficient than our old stoker great 00:44:04.71000:44:04.720 systems so you you get much less ash 00:44:06.93000:44:06.940 than you're used to per ton of biomass 00:44:09.51000:44:09.520 going in it's my understanding you have 00:44:12.24000:44:12.250 to have your ash tested so to make sure 00:44:14.64000:44:14.650 that of the components and what's in it 00:44:16.23000:44:16.240 to make sure that it is viable for land 00:44:18.21000:44:18.220 spreading and then land spreading or 00:44:19.68000:44:19.690 road construction using it for aggregate 00:44:21.90000:44:21.910 and road construction are all viable 00:44:23.93000:44:23.940 opportunities but we're always gonna 00:44:26.03900:44:26.049 look at new things going down the pike 00:44:28.10900:44:28.119 as well I mean just additives to 00:44:29.73000:44:29.740 potential soil additives and whatnot 00:44:31.94000:44:31.950 yeah both Robert in Alden represent 00:44:36.39000:44:36.400 companies that are currently in the wood 00:44:40.89000:44:40.900 products business and it looks like you 00:44:43.79900:44:43.809 know the upfront cost of building one of 00:44:47.49000:44:47.500 these plants is tremendous my question 00:44:50.25000:44:50.260 either enough maybe Eric could the 00:44:54.18000:44:54.190 companies in Maine that if the wood 00:44:55.89000:44:55.900 products business big enough to justify 00:44:58.26000:44:58.270 such a cost is that I would say that 00:45:03.78000:45:03.790 there are a few not everyone but 00:45:07.85900:45:07.869 certainly a few some larger Mills 00:45:11.12000:45:11.130 importantly and I the gentlemen that 00:45:15.08900:45:15.099 know their numbers can feel free to 00:45:16.44000:45:16.450 disagree with me but I would say getting 00:45:19.74000:45:19.750 a 20 year contract at an attractive rate 00:45:26.05900:45:26.069 was a key piece of both of those 00:45:28.95000:45:28.960 projects being built and that 00:45:31.20000:45:31.210 opportunity doesn't currently exist so 00:45:35.19000:45:35.200 one of the key building blocks for for 00:45:37.82900:45:37.839 doing the next projects is having 00:45:42.23000:45:42.240 something like that still around and 00:45:44.94000:45:44.950 that the political environment isn't 00:45:47.51000:45:47.520 isn't there quite yet I don't know if 00:45:49.77000:45:49.780 you gentlemen would disagree agree so 00:45:54.78000:45:54.790 one of the main building blocks is a 20 00:45:56.28000:45:56.290 year power purchase agreement that the 00:45:58.46000:45:58.470 that allows them to sell power at a rate 00:46:01.28900:46:01.299 that they know they can finance the very 00:46:04.79900:46:04.809 very high upfront capital costs use a 00:46:11.28000:46:11.290 tremendous amount of wood to justify 00:46:13.31900:46:13.329 this nope certainly works better with a 00:46:19.38000:46:19.390 tremendous amount of wood for example 00:46:21.10900:46:21.119 zappy uses a tremendous amount of wood 00:46:25.09900:46:25.109 yeah um and I'll just point out you know 00:46:29.13000:46:29.140 I I spend a lot of time in the biomass 00:46:31.04900:46:31.059 world but one thing I heard which I knew 00:46:34.17000:46:34.180 but didn't know how publicly we said you 00:46:36.29900:46:36.309 know you mentioned a swing of maybe one 00:46:41.70000:46:41.710 year you're using 400,000 tons next year 00:46:44.06900:46:44.079 you're using 900,000 okay for everyone 00:46:47.01000:46:47.020 doing the math at home that's 500,000 00:46:49.82900:46:49.839 tons that's basically turning on and off 00:46:53.01000:46:53.020 a 40 megawatt standalone power plant 00:46:56.97000:46:56.980 which is nuts to think about in terms of 00:46:59.64000:46:59.650 supply chain so just as we're out there 00:47:02.60900:47:02.619 thinking about how important CHP is CHP 00:47:05.43000:47:05.440 is sort and certainly important at the 00:47:07.04900:47:07.059 smaller scale it's it's it sort of 00:47:11.33900:47:11.349 creates its own weather and makes its 00:47:13.04900:47:13.059 own market at the larger scale 00:47:15.06000:47:15.070 question was what's driving our 00:47:17.96000:47:17.970 variability in our biomass usage and 00:47:20.78000:47:20.790 it's basically the energy cost structure 00:47:24.84000:47:24.850 so it what's what's changed dramatically 00:47:27.45000:47:27.460 for us is the shale natural gas from the 00:47:31.02000:47:31.030 Marcellus Basin as driven gas prices 00:47:34.38000:47:34.390 down we connected a 54-mile natural gas 00:47:39.30000:47:39.310 line to the mill 2014 so when when the 00:47:43.92000:47:43.930 gas price is low and sometimes it can be 00:47:46.74000:47:46.750 very low it did make sense for us to 00:47:49.20000:47:49.210 swap to gas okay and in that that same 00:47:53.43000:47:53.440 gas phenomenon much of the power 00:47:55.92000:47:55.930 generated in New England is based on 00:47:57.78000:47:57.790 natural gas pricing so sometimes it's 00:48:00.45000:48:00.460 not gas were swapping to sometimes is 00:48:02.49000:48:02.500 we're just buying the power outright
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